Happy Friday my friends!

For 11/17 let's assign:

Book 5: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

Chapter 31: O.W.L.s
Chapter 32: Out of the Fire
Chapter 33: Fight and Flight
Chapter 34: The Department of Mysteries

Let's get reading and discussing~

My notes are all messed up for this one, but here goes nothing:

GRISELDA MARCHBANKS / UMBRIDGE - Umbridge seems to be trying to impress Griselda Marchbanks and I am wondering if it is because she has suffered memory loss or truly thinks that she can convince Tofty and (especially) Marchbanks that she is a good Headmaster - er - Headmistress. I am wondering whether Griselda is really hard of hearing or whether she is just faking it because she wants to be overheard:

p. 625 (OOTP 31) – “Harry thought Professor Marchbanks must be the tiny, stooped witch with a face so lined it looked as though it had been draped in cobwebs; Umbridge was speaking to her deferently.”

p. 626 (OOTP 31) – “Professor Marchbanks seemed to be a little deaf; she was answering Professor Umbridge very loudly considering they were only a foot apart.”

We also learn that Umbridge is not the only one who is trying to gain Griselda's favour when Draco hints that he has the inside edge since his father has been careful to invite Griselda over for supper (much like Vernon invited the Masons over because he thought a good meal would gain him the contract).

p. 623 (OOTP 31) – ‘Of course, it’s not what you know,’ / ‘it’s who you know. Now, Father’s been friendly with the head of the Wizarding Examinations Authority for years – old Griselda Marchbanks – we’ve had her round for dinner and everything …’

p. 623 (OOTP 31) – ‘I don’t think it’s true,’ said Neville quietly from behind them. ‘Because Griselda Marchbanks is a friend of my gran’s, and she’s never mentioned the Malfoys.’

Seems also as if Griselda is a good friend of Augusta Longbottom (Neville's grandma) and that Augusta does not use that friendship to ensure her grandson a better result on his OWLs. Neville said at the beginning that his grandmother believes Harry because she has complete faith in DD. Since Griselda is already on record for being annoyed at Fudge and his office for their treatment of
DD, how can Umbridge, who is basically Fudge's right hand woman expect to gain Marchbanks's favour?

p. 276 (OOTP 15) – ‘Wizengamot elders Griselda Marchbanks and Tiberius Ogden have resigned in protest at the introduction of the post of Inquisitor to Hogwarts.’

p. 276 (OOTP 15) – ‘“Hogwarts is a school, not an outpost of Cornelius Fudge’s office,’ said Madame Marchbanks. “This is a further, disgusting attempt to discredit Albus Dumbleodore.” …’

p. 276 (OOTP 15) – ‘(For a full account of Madame Marchbanks’s alleged links to subversive goblin groups, turn to page seventeen.)’

Have Lucius and Dolores already switched their allegiences from Fudge to someone else at this point? If Umbridge sides with those who give her authority and power, she would have to be fine-tuned to who is on the way up and who is on the way out.

JKR: She has good contacts at the Ministry. / and I would go as far as to say that whatever happened and whoever took over at the Ministry, Umbridge would be there, she likes power. So she is going to side with the people who give her the authority.

And I am hearing a bit of distancing from Fudge when Umbridge she speaks of "The Minister" and "Ministry Security" - Rufus Scrimgeour, as head of the Aurours would be "Ministry Security." I would even say that Umbridge was refering to a different Minister other than the Minister of Magic except that, in response to Hermione she says "Cornelius."

p. 657 (OOTP 32) – ‘Very well … I am left with no alternative … this is more than a matter of school discipline … this is an issue of Ministry security … yes … yes …’

pp. 657-658 (OOTP 32) – ‘You are forcing me, Potter … I do not want to,’ said Umbridge, still moving restlessly on the spot, ‘but sometimes circumstances justify the use … I am sure the Minister will understand that I had no choice …’

p. 658 (OOTP 32) – ‘The Minister wouldn’t want you to break the law, Professor Umbridge!’ cried Hermione. ‘What Cornelius doesn’t know won’t hurt him,’ said Umbridge, …”

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Tiberius Ogden, like Griselda, used to be a Wizengamot elder, but he, like Griselda, resigned in protest when Umbridge was made Inquisitor. However, unlike, Griselda, Tiberius did not seem important enough to try to try to discredit (ie the goblin groups). Tiberius Ogden does seem to be a close friend of Tofty since he told Tofty about Harry's Patronus. This indicates to me that Tofty may also be in DD's camp. It was the Wizengamot elders who judged Harry's case.

p. 630 (OOTP 31) – ‘I heard, from my dear friend Tiberius Ogden, that you can produce a Patronus? For a bonus point …?’

p. 276 (OOTP 15) – quote used above

GINNY GAINING CONFIDENCE

Ginny had just come off a major win at Quidditch which she is captured by the Inquisitory Squad. Ron makes a point of sharing his pride in his baby sister with Harry, first about how Ginny caught the snitch and then how "supurbly" Ginny attacked Draco. On page 671, we get the first head that all this praise is starting to go to Ginny's head - note how Ginny goes from being "the best" to the reason they got away?! She may be trying to prove her skill to Harry because she wants to go along, but we also see hints that Ginny is very rapidly gaining - er - confidence.

p. 621 (OOTP 31) – ‘… Did you see the look on Chang’s face when Ginny got the Snitch right out from under her nose?’

p. 670 (OOTP 33) – ‘But Ginny was the best, she got Malfoy – Bat Bogey Hex – it was superb, his whole face was covered in the great flapping things. …’

p. 671 (OOTP 33) – ‘… and it’s because of me that Malfoy’s stuck back at Umbridge’s office with giant flying bogies attacking him –’

LUNA THINKING AHEAD

Way back when she first hears of the plan of going to the Ministry, Luna asks the question no one had gotten to yet: ‘But how are you going to get there?’ and she keeps thinking about that question as Hermione pushes to test to see whether Black is at the Ministry, and, seemingly, even as the others struggle against their captors - as if, since others were already working on those problems that she should be devoting her energies to solving the problem of the future:

p. 649 (OOTP 32) – ‘The Department of Mysteries?’ said Luna, looking mildly surprised. ‘But how are you going to get there?’ Again, Harry ignored her.”

p. 651 (OOTP 32) – “Luna was standing with her back to them at the far end of the corridor.”

p. 655 (OOTP 32) – “Luna, however, stood limply by the side of her captor, gazing vaguely out of the window as though rather bored by the proceedings.”

Note how the book makes a point of saying that Harry is ignoring Luna, whereas most of the times when Harry ignores a person, they just fade from view?

Now Harry starts wondering how they are going to get to the Ministry. His wondering is echoed by Hermione, seconded by Ron, and everyone else seems stumped:

p. 669 (OOTP 33) – “They had wasted so much time – they were even further from rescuing Sirius than they had been when he had had the vision. Not only had Harry managed to lose his wand but they were stuck in the middle of the Forbidden Forest with no means of transport whatsoever.”

pp. 669-670 (OOTP 33) – ‘Anyway, Harry, how exactly were you planning to get all the way to London?’ ‘Yeah, we were just wondering that,’ said a familiar voice from behind her.”

p. 670 (OOTP 33) – ‘… I’m sure Sirius is still alive, but I can’t see how we’re going to get there to help him.’ They all fell silent, looking rather scared; the problem facing them seemed insurmountable.”

Note that when everyone falls silent that Luna figures that it is her turn to speak? And she seems to have solved the problem that others saw as insurmountable:

p. 670 (OOTP 33) – ‘Well, we’ll have to fly, won’t we?’ said Luna, in the closest thing to a matter-of-fact voice Harry had ever heard her use.”

p. 671 (OOTP 33) – ‘Well, it doesn’t matter, anyway,’ said Harry through gritted teeth, ‘Because we still don’t know how to get there –’ ‘I thought we’d settled that,’ said Luna maddeningly. ‘We’re flying!’

p. 671 (OOTP 33) – ‘Look,’ said Ron, barely containing his anger, ‘you might be able to fly without a broomstick but the rest of us can’t sprout wings whenever we –’ ‘There are ways of flying other than with broomsticks,’ said Luna serenely.”

GRAWP'S THORN

Anyone remember that story about the lion with the thorn in his foot and the person who pulled it out? Seems as if Grawp's hands are a bit big to be able to pull out all these painful arrow heads - so who pulled it out for him?

p. 669 (OOTP 33) – “… fifty arrows soared through the air at the giant, peppering his enormous face, causing him to howl with pain and rage and straighten up, rubbing his face with his enourmous hands, breaking off the arrow shafts but forcing the arrowheads in still deeper.”

Ch.31 OWLs
-“As Harry passed Umbridge beside the door, their eyes met. There was a nasty smile playing around her wide, slack mouth.” (p.630) Why is Umbridge smiling? Is it because she knows she’s going to sack Hagrid and that will make Harry sad OR is it just that she knows Harry passed his DADA OWL and why he passed but can’t prove it? Now, Umbridge gets another Niffler in her office a few days after the DADA OWL, so is this when she decides to sack Hagrid or is it before?
-Harry has a “vision” of LV torturing Sirius in the Department of Mysteries. We find out that LV planted this “vision.”

Ch.32 Out of the Fire
“Kreacher the house-elf crept into view. He looked highly delighted about something, though he seemed to have recently sustained a nasty injury to both hands, which were heavily bandaged.” (p.652) This tells us that Kreacher has disobeyed Sirius somehow and had to punish himself, just like Dobby does. (We find out later, why).

Ch.33 Fight and Flight
I’m just wondering why Harry didn’t go find Snape after Umbridge was “carried away” by the centaurs. After all, Snape is in the Order. Harry seems to forget this point very frequently.

Ch.34 The Department of Mysteries
-p.683 Harry, Luna, Ginny and Neville are affected by the Veil. They are “apparently entranced” by it. Why aren’t Ron and Hermione affected by it?
-p.684 There is a door that’s locked and Harry can’t get through it. I wonder what’s behind that door?
-The prophecy is in row 97…9+7=16…1+6=7 the magic number…just thought that was interesting.

Joked about the seven books in the series being like a dance of the seven veils with each book revealing something new about Harry's backstory. I think that Harry likes swaying movements generally since he did mention somewhere earlier in this book something about how the flames moved in the fire and in the previous he notes how Veela hair seems to fan out even without visible signs of wind.

Harry seems memorised by the swaying movement of the veil, but, like Luna, also intrigued by the the sounds emitting from it. Ginny and Neville seems so memorized as to be speachless and, since Hermione and Ron seemed to feel that they were in danger enough to pull away - though Harry tried pulling Harry away first but he resisted. Don't know Ron's reaction but something was spooking Hermione:

p. 682 (OOTP 34) - 'Careful!' whispered Hermione." / 'Let's go,' called Hermione from halfway up the stone steps. 'This isn't right, Harry, come on, let's go.' She sounded scared, much more scared than she had in the room where the brains swam, ..."

p. 683 (OOTP 34) - "She grabbed his arm and pulled, but he resisted."

pp. 683-684 (OOTP 34) – “On the other side, Ginny and Neville were staring, apparently entranced, at the veil too. Without speaking, Hermione took hold of Ginny’s arm, Ron grabbed Neville’s, and they marched them firmly back to the lowest stone bench and clambered all the way back up to the door.”

The recently defunct Celtic name site listed Cailleach or "The Veiled One" as the Goddess of death and I think there was a veiled Egyptian death goddess as well. But there was an earlier reverence to the starless moonless sky being like a veil over Harry's eyes and the idea that he needs to listen to know what's going down (giving a further hint that there is something ominous about veils and the veiled:

p. 20 (OOTP 1) – “He turned his head this way and that, trying to see something, but the darkness pressed on his eyes like a weightless veil.”

p. 20 (OOTP 1) – “Harry stood stock still, turning his sightless eyes left and right.”

p. 20 (OOTP 1) – “… he strained his ears … he would hear them before he saw them …”

And the veil is mentioned earlier in the form of Mundungus (wearing the same veil we may later see on Irma Pince). Hermione correctly pointed out that the witch could not be Umbridge, but, because "she" wasn't Umbridge, and thought no more of her.

p. 300 (OOTP 16) – “… and in a shadowy corner beside the fireplace sat a witch with a thick, black veil that fell to her toes. The could just see the tip of her nose because it caused the veil to protrude slightly.”



I don't think that Harry was too concerned about what happened to Umbridge and it seemed to be Hermione's plan since she being noisy on purpose in an attempt to attract them. Harry doesn't really want to go back up to the castle because he figures that if they keep dawdling that Black will be dead.

Anyway both Harry and Umbridge seem to agree that Snape had been deliberately unhelpful to their side in Umbridge's office (Umbridge because he would not give her Veritiserum and Harry because Snape acted like he did not know what he was talking about when he was trying to hint about Black being at the Ministry). Snape does say something which sounds to me like a reference to the Centaurs since they talk according to the movements of the planets:

p. 656 (OOTP 32) – ‘It takes a full moon-cycle to mature, so I should have it ready for you in around a month.’

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Remember when we first met Slughorn and he appeared to Harry as being nothing but a chair? Wouldn't that be transfiguration? Is Griselda hinting that DD can be any item in the room?

p. 627 (OOTP 31) – ‘No idea where he is, I suppose?’ ‘None at all,’ said Umbridge, …” / ‘But I daresay the Ministry of Magic will track him down soon enough.’ I doubt it,’

p. 627 (OOTP 31) – ‘I doubt it,’ shouted tiny Professor Marchbanks, ‘not if Dumbledore doesn’t want to be found! I should know … examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did NEWTs … did things with a wand I’d never seen before.’

Eek! I'm late again. I'm really sorry. So here are my thoughts on last weeks chapters. Ch.27-30.

Chapter 27

-Pg. 612 The magic that Hermione did to Marietta's face is obviously very advanced. So advanced that Umbridge (though she is dimwitted) couldn't get off. Where and how does Hermione learn some of this stuff? She couldn't possibly learn it all from a book can she?

Chapter 28

-Pg. 627 When Montague is said to be forced into the vanishing cabinet. Is this the same cabinet as in the next book?

-Pg. 630 Umbridge giving Harry the serum. Do professors have the authorization to use such a serum on a student? Eventually we find out its fake but right now all of the warning signs are going off Harry should be able to recognize them.

-Pg. 631 The only fireplace not watched is her own. First off, why would she share such information with him and secondly why isn't hers being watched? I don't think her ties to the ministry should keep hers from being watched as well. Besides...isn't floo traffic always monitered? I thought we were told that in a previous book.

-Pg. 639 Snape obviously has enough confidence in Harry to break into his mind that he takes out his memories of things he doesn't want Harry to see. But why wouldn't Snape want harry to see that. It shows his Dad being exactly how Snape always told him he was. I would think he would want Harry to see it to prove how idiotic his father really was. And Vaudree to answer you previous question about thi chapter...I think that it could very easily be Snapes worst memory. He's being 'rescued' by a muggle born and being teased by the most popular crowd in school. When your in school those are the memories that leave the most impression upon you.

-Pg. 647 Lily clearly hates James in the dream so what made her change her mind about him? Did he straighten out his act? What do you think?

Okay thats all I have for...uh...last week. I'll have the others read and quoted by Friday. Promise!

Professor Jamie / Wizzzz / Hedwig Soars / Trycki / NWBubbles et al

I am wondering if for the weeks of Dec 1, Dec 8, Dec 15, Dec 22 and Dec 29 (the first weeks of HBP) that we only do two chapters each week? Just so that we can spend more time shopping, cleaning and with family over Xmas? What do you think? It might mean writing less, but as long as we write something each week this thread is not going away.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bubbles yeah I think it is the same cabinet. I note that JKR gives Draco the opportunity to talk to Montague, though Draco does give the impression that Montague was in no shape for talking.



Snape said previously that Veritiserum is controlled by "Ministry guidelines" whatever that means. In this book, we have canon precidence in the case of wrong-way Willy who beats the exploding toilet charge because he had information that the Ministry finds useful. I presume that those who make Umbridge's nose brown in the Ministry would consider knowing where DD or Black is useful information. I don't know how much DD consulted the Ministry when he used it on Barty Junior - so these guidelines could be just - er - guidelines:

pp. 448-449 (GOF 27) – ‘It is Veritaserum – a Truth Potion so powerful that three drops would have you spilling your innermost secrets for this entire class to hear,’ said Snape viciously. ‘Now, the use of this Potion is controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines. …’

It would also be Harry's word against Umbridge's and we also have cannon precedence that a student's word is not taken too seriously.

p. 287 (POA 21) – ‘There is not a shred of proof to support Black’s story, except your word – and the word of two thirteen-year-old wizards will not convince anybody. …’

Umbridge also attempts to use Veriteserum during this weeks reading after catching Harry in her fire. The big difference is that this time she knows that Harry tried to contact somebody so giving Harry fake Veriteserum is not an option this time.

p. 656 (OOTP 32) – ‘Yes, I would like another bottle of Veritaserum, as quick as you can, please.’ ‘You took my last bottle to interrogate Potter,’ he said, …” / ‘Surely you did not use it all? I told you that three drops would be sufficient.’

p. 656 (OOTP 32) – ‘I wish you to provide me with a potion that will force him to tell me the truth!’ ‘I have already told you,’ said Snape smoothly, ‘that I have no further stocks of Veritaserum. …’

Notice the amusement that makes Snape so Canadian here - he cannot completely hide his amusement over the fact that Umbridge doesn't know the first thing about Truth serums (and, hopefully, neither does Lucius). Snape also does a quick bait and switch in that he both suggests and discounts the use of poison - making it sound as if he would be willing to bring her some but also convincing her not to ask him to. Snape did not wait for Umbridge to suggest poison first.

Harry figures that Snape was his last hope to rescue Black, but Umbridge seems to also feel that Snape is her last hope for reasons we only half know:

p. 657 (OOTP 32) – ‘You are being deliberately unhelpful! I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you! Now get out of my office!’

p. 657 (OOTP 32) – “… Snape had been his very last hope. He looked at Umbridge, who seemed to be feeling the same way; her chest was heaving with rage and frustration.”

Now what did Lucius tell Umbridge about Snape that made her feel that he would be willing/able to move mountains to help her?

Ok, if Veriteserum is questionable, Crucio would be even moreso - and the Dementors - seems as if the Ministry does not ask very many questions of a gift horse if the answers may be embarassing.

pp. 657-658 (OOTP 32) - see above for crucio quotes.



It could be that the memory also puts Snape in a bad light in ways that we are yet to fanthom. We don't know enough about what he is ashamed of and what he is alright about (ie the Mudblood comment).

There could also be memories in there more personal than a kiss - where (the metaphor the Mods want us to use) Snape goes for a walk - especially if he was walking with someone whom is not a stranger to Harry. I also doubt that Snape wants Harry to know that he was the one who told Voldemort about the Prophecy nor the reasons why he became a DE in the first place, nor what he did as a DE.

Feel free to agree or disagree with any suggestion - just because my mouth runneth continuously doesn't make any decisions mine.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Observations about Chapter 31:

CHESS - It seems that what is going on in the chess game is reflected in what is going on around the characters. In this example, the Queen seems to be Hermione, but I think there is a different game coming up where the Queen is the sister of the Weasle-King. In this game, however, wasn't Ron one of Harry's knights?

p. 630 (OOTP 31) – “… Hermione clamberd in, looking thoroughly bad-tempered.”

p. 631 (OOTP 31) – ‘Such a lovely, sweet-tempered girl,’ said Ron, very quietly, prodding his queen forward to beat up one of Harry’s knights.”

RON LIKE JAMES - Harry seems to have noticed a few similarities between the James he saw in the Pensieve and his best friend Ron. Ok Ron likes showing of and rumpling his hair and an audience (he shares DNA with the twin so why not!). But Harry doesn't seem to see any of the bad about James in Ron. Why is that? Is Ron being like James important to the plot some how?

p. 621 (OOTP 31) – “Ron was not particularly keen on this idea at first – he was thoroughly enjoying being patted on the back by every Gryffindor who walked passed his chair, not to mention the occasional outbursts of ‘Weasley is our King’ …”

pp. 620-621 (OOTP 31) – ‘… well – you saw what happened,’ he concluded modestly, sweeping his hair back quite unnecessarily so that it looked interestingly windswept and glancing around to see whether the people nearest to them – a bunch of gossiping third-year Hufflepuffs – had heard him.”

p. 621 (OOTP 31) – “The truth was that Ron had just reminded Harry forcibly of another Gryffindor Quidditch player who had once sat rumpling his hair under this very tree.”

NEVILLE AND HIS PARENTS - Seems as if Neville's reasons for not talking about his parents is a little bit more complicated than just the fact that they are in St Mungo's. Neville seems to find it a bit painful to be compared unfavourably to the people they used to be. If he finds out that his pedigree is not as stellar and he has been led to believe, what affect will it have on Neville?

p. 454 (OOTP 23) – ‘They were Aurors, you know, and very well respected within the wizarding community,’ Mrs Longbottom went on. ‘Highly gifted, the pair of them. …’

p. 624 (OOTP 31) - ‘Oh, I don’t think it will make any difference,’ said Neville, still more miserably. ‘Gran’s always telling Professor Marchbanks I’m not as good as my dad … well … you saw what she’s like at St Mungo’s …’

UMBRIDGE AND HAGRID - Why isn't Umbridge monitoring Hagrid's class like she was previously. She was monitoring every class before this and not she isn't. Is she awaiting a decision or does she not wish for her OWL testing guests to look at how Hagrid's teaching too closely? Why does she go after Hagrid in the dark?

p. 631 (OOTP 31) – ‘He’s teaching at the moment, she can’t blame him,’ said Harry, gesturing out of the window. ‘Oh, you’re so naïve sometimes, Harry. You really think Umbridge will wait for proof?’

And why does McG defend Hagrid so adamently? We know that Hagrid kissed McG in PS/SS. There is an echo of Lily with the "Leave him alone" and what happens to McG seems to gain the sympathy of the testers - which Umbridge seemed to have been attempting to avoid:

p. 636 (OOTP 31) – ‘How dare you!’ the figure shouted as she ran. ‘How dare you!’ / ‘Leave him alone! Alone, I say!’ said Professor McGonagall’s voice through the darkness. ‘On what grounds are you attacking him? He’s done nothing, nothing to warrant such –’

p. 636 (OOTP 31) – “The figures around the cabin had shot no fewer than four Stunners at Professor McGonagall. Halfway between cabin and castle the red beams collided with her; for a moment she looked luminous and glowed an eerie red, then she lifted right off her feet, landed hard on her back, and moved no more.”

p. 636 (OOTP 31) – ‘Galloping gargoyles!’ shouted Professor Tofty, who also seemed to have forgotten the exam completely. ‘Not so much as a warning! Outrageous behaviour.’

And there is a bit of an echo in that Hermione and Madame Pomfrey say almost the same thing. Is this a clue that there may be something else in common between Hermione and the French healer that we don't know about? Could this be a clue that Hermione is thinking of going into healing or that there is something more in common between the personalities of these three women?

p. 637 (OOTP 31) – ‘… but poor Professor McGonagall … four Stunners straight in the chest and she’s not exactly young, is she?’ (Hermione)

p. 644 (OOTP 32) – ‘She was transferred to St Mungo’s this morning. Four Stunning Spells straight to the chest at her age? It’s a wonder they didn’t kill her.’ (Pomfrey)

Observations about Chapter 31:

UMBRIDGE AND DRACO - Umbridge doesn't seem to trust her underlings much. Either Harry is right and Umbridge noticed Draco's expression of greedy fantasy and feared her underlings usurping her authority - or she wished to insure that she got all the credit and may have been afraid that Draco would tell Lucius since she put him in charge of the owls. Either way, Umbridge seems to have a special greed about taking credit for things that will please her superiors - one that makes her foolhearty:

p. 660 (OOTP 32) – ‘… I’d love it if the wh – whole school knew where it was, and how to u – use it, and then if you annoy any of them they’ll be able to s – sort you out!’

p. 660 (OOTP 32) – “These words had a powerful impact on Umbridge: she glanced swiftly and suspiciously around at her Inquisitorial Squad, her bulging eyes resting for a moment on Malfoy, who was too slow to disguise the look of eagerness and greed that appeared on his face.”

p. 660 (OOTP 32) – “Professor Umbridge, I think some of the Squad should come with you to look after –’ ‘I am a fully qualified Ministry official, Malfoy, do you really think I cannot manage tow wandless teenagers alone’

MILLICENT'S DISGUST - Two things happen very closely together - Umbridge's confession and Hermione wiping her face on Millicent's cloak. Either way Millicent breaks away looking disgusted. Harry think it is because Millicent is too tough for tears but it could be that Millicent felt disgust over Umbridge's confession. There is a tendency to see DD as favouring Gryffindor and Umbridge was finally a Headmaster - er Headmistr*ss - who seemed to give Slytherin their due.

So what do you think Millicent's real views are and what role (albeit small one) do you think she will play in book 7?

p. 654[/b] (OOTP 32) – “Now he could see Hermione pinioned against the wall by Millicent Bulstrode.”

p. 655 (OOTP 32) – “… Hermione was attempting, in vain, to throw Millicent Bulstrode off her.”

p. 658 (OOTP 32) – “And Hermione began to cry weakly into the back of Millicent Bulstrode’s robes. Millicent stopped trying to squash her against the wall immediately and dodged out of her way looking disgusted.”



Good observation - but which Mistr*ss (a word used only one way in Canada outside of watching Gone with the Wind) is Kreacher talking about? Is Black limiting her contact with her present Mistr*ss Walburga or is Kreacher talking about his, hopefully future Mistr*ss the Trix rabbit?

p. 653 (OOTP 32) - ‘Kreacher thinks he will have a little chat with his mistress now, yes, he hasn’t had a chance in a long time, Kreacher’s master has been keeping him away from her –’

NEVILLE STRANGLED - Neville doesn't just seem to be in danger of being strangled in (OOTP 32) pages 654, 655 and 657, but also previously when Harry was trying to prevent him from attacking Draco. Why would Harry be exerting pressure on Neville's throat - sounds as if he could not restrain him without doing so:

p. 322 (OOTP 17) – “Neville’s face was scarlet; the pressure Harry was exerting on his throat rendered him quite incomprehensible, but odd words spluttered from his mouth. ‘Not … funny … don’t … Mungo’s … show … him.’

NOT HURTING FOALS - Earlier Magorian said that they did not harm foals and that doing so was a very serious crime. I get the feeling that Bane does not figure that harming humans of any age a crime at all and that he is trying to steer the other centaurs towards his way of thinking. Seems as if there are various factions in the centaur world trying to have the rules changed - or at least modified.

GINNY AND THE EGG - Ginny dawdled too at the veil in what we later learn is the room of death. But here she throws it back at Harry that he dawdled earlier because she wishes to keep looking at the bird going through the cycle of life. Seems to be showing us that Ginny is able to use excuses and parlimentar approved innuendo and insinuations to justify doing exactly what she wants to do.

But what else does this show about her? Why the interest in the processes of the life cycle of birds?

p. 685 (OOTP 34) ‘Keep going!’ said Harry sharply, because Ginny showed signs of wanting to stop and watch the egg’s progress back into a bird. ‘You dawdled enough by that old arch!’ she said crossly, but followed him past the bell jar to the only door behind it.”

Son getting impatient

Happy day after Thanksgiving faithfuls!

I hope your holiday was joyous!

For 11/24 let's assign:

Book 5: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

Chapter 35: Beyond The Veil
Chapter 36: The Only One He Ever Feared
Chapter 37: The Lost Prophecy
Chapter 38: The Second War Begins

Another one down, one more to go.

Let's get reading and discussing~

Regarding the chapter assignments: I feel we should limit ourselves to two a week for the whole of book 6. For several reasons:
1. JKR always said book 7 is part 2 of book 6 meaning they are more connected then the others. This causes more things to have more meaning throughout the whole book and we can investigate them more.
2. I think we should try to spread out book 6 for a little while so that when we finish it, it will be closer to the release date of book 7 and I won't feel the need to read the series to "catch back up".
3. I have a hard time keeping up as it is right now and when Christmas comes things will be hectic to say the least.

So my vote is for 2 chapters for the whole of book 6.
----------
On to the chapters! I'm getting closer and closer to the deadline...baby steps.

Chapter 31

-Pg. 711 "...examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did NEWTS...did things with a wand I'd never seen before" I know I saw somebody else post this (perhaps vaudree?) but this makes me think that DD has the ability to transform himself. But maybe not in an animagus form because its something that she had never seen before. Another thing that struck me as odd was if NEWTS are like OWLS then won't the examiner tell the students what to peform? How can DD show her things she doesn't ask for?

-Pg. 721 Regarding Umbridge stunning McG. Umbridge is a little bit hysterical at this point I think. Not only does she lose her cool with stunning Hagrid but she then stricks McG without warning AND right in front of ministry officals that do the testing. Surely that won't be kept quite around the office about how unstable Umbridge is. She could go stunning people at random without warning.

Nothing too much in Chapter 32

Chapter 33

-Pg. 753 Regarding Hermione leading the way to the centures instead of Grawp. I was a little surprised that Herminoe chose this path instead of Grawp. I wonder what made her think that this way was best. If she showed Grawp then that could actually be counted as a weapon and for as smart as Hermione is I feel as though she should have realized how hostile the centures are towards humans no matter if they're "fowls" or not.

Chapter 34

-Pg. 772 JKR doesn't present something with a lot of information unless it means something. And she presents the room with the brains with a lot of detail. (Please forgive me if this room is important later and I just don't remember) So I'm wondering where exactly the brains are coming from. Could they be from the dementors or perhaps prisoners that have died and they're doing some sort of research on them. I'm not sure.

Regarding LV tricking Harry's mind in the Dept. of Mysteries. Harry is getting this visions from LV's own memories right? So how does he have a memory of the prophecy room? Has he been in it before? I don't see how he'd be able to. I know that people have told him where Harry's prophecy is but he surely couldn't picture that much detail in his head for harry to pick up on can he?

I hope that last comment made sense. Anyway please let me know what you think!

I suggested two HBP chapters a week over Xmas, and then it can be voted on again after. Think we all need a bit of a breather soon. I can go either way, with the whole book, but figure it might be easier to get agreement for the next five weeks, to start with, than for the whole book.

The within chapter page ratio seems to be consistently within half a page - so if your p. 721 is my p. 636, then my p. 634 would be your p. 719 (or the bottom half of 718 or the top half of 720).

RE Brains - the way they act, I think that Luna's accessment of what they are is a bit more accurate. Maybe they were put in there to show how Ron is attracted to brains (or brainy girls). The only thing that I can think of is that they make Harry worry about Ron and his ability to fight them off - Harry seems to worry about the safety of everyone but himself. When Luna comes in with Ron and Ginny - Luna seems to think that Ginny's injuries are more serious while Harry seems to think Ron's are.

Chapter 31 / p. 627 (OOTP 31)–(US, p. 711) put Slughorn in edit/find for this page.



Not only Umbridge hit McG - she is just not good enough to get four good stuns in on target. McG can be accused of interferring with an arrest. If there is a complaint about the excessiveness, who would prove that Umbridge actually used her wand? Umbridge earlier accused Filch of stunning the Firecrackers so she is not above trying to make someone else take the fall for her - er instability.

Seems to me as if they came there to arrest Hagrid for something and it was not only Umbridge shooting at Hagrid. Hagrid they could justify as resisting arest (though the force seems excessive, many people seem to share Umbridge and Rita's prejudice concerning giants so it can be justified - especially if her reports say he has a fondness for violence). Seems as if they were not so much trying to fire Hagrid but arrest him since firing him would not mean he had to vacate his cabin - and, according to the last page of (OOTP 36) the Aurors have been searching for him.

p. 636 (OOTP 31) – “The figures around the cabin had shot no fewer than four Stunners at Professor McGonagall.” (US, p. 721?)

p. 634 (OOTP 31) – “If they had not been moving, and the moonlight had not been gilding the tops of their heads, they would have been indistinguishable from the dark ground on which they walked.”

p. 722 (OOTP 36) – ‘You will tell your Aurors to stop searching for my Care of Magical Creatures teacher so that he can return to work. …’



Voldemort could go to the Dept of Myst without revealing that he had returned but he could not pick up the Prophecy without revealing his return since only two people could do that. Odds are is that he spliced memories together - and it seems that Bellatrix and Black look allot alike. Black's words would be consistant from when he was a secret-keeper - he would have got suspicious if no one came after him at all - and Voldemort could have spliced the memory and added his own dialogue in later.

The thing that Voldemort cannot control as well is his emotions - which may be a clue. Now on to this week:

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

STUNNING: - To me, the request to stun Neville for being annoying (for trying to get away) seems a lot more reasonable than Avada or Crucio? Was the person really irritated, like Harry thought, or did they figure that if they stunned Neville that the others would forget about him?

p. 706 (OOTP 35) – ‘I DOE YOU HAB!’ roared Neville, and he fought so hard against his captor’s encircling grip that the Death Eater shouted, ‘Someone Stun him!’

HARRY'S NEED TO BE A HERO - Both Hermione and Ron accuse Harry of needing to be a hero. Ron uses the example of Gabrielle whom Harry had never laid eyes on before he rescued her. Hermione give the example of Ginny, whom Harry refers to as "Ron's sister." A Ginny and Gabrielle comparison comes up in HBP so it is strange that these are the two examples that come up here as well.

p. 646 (OOTP 32) – ‘You … this isn’t criticism, Harry! But you do … sort of … I mean – don’t you think you’ve got a bit of a – a – saving-people thing?’ she said.”

p. 646 (OOTP 32) – ‘I mean … last year, for instance … in the lake … during the Tournament … you shouldn’t have … I mean, you didn’t need to save that little Delacour girl … you got a bit … carried away …’

p. 647 (OOTP 32) – ‘I’m trying to say – Voldemort knows you, Harry! He took Ginny down into the Chamber of Secrets to lure you there, it’s the kind of thing he does, he knows you’re the – the sort of person who’d go to Sirius’s aid! What if he is just trying to get you into the Department of Myst -?’

p. 647 (OOTP 32) – ‘… And if I remember rightly, you didn’t have a problem with my saving-people thing when it was you I was saving from the Dementors, or –’ he rounded on Ron ‘- when it was your sister I was saving from the Basilisk –’

It seems that both Ron and Hermione were right - Lucius confirms that Voldemort did prey on Harry's need to be a hero - or, more accurately, a rescuer. There seems to be a bit of a difference between Harry's motivations for "heroics" and Sir Cadogan's motivations:

p. 690 (OOTP 35) - ‘Oh, you don’t know Potter as I do, Bellatrix,’ said Malfoy softely. ‘He

(cont)

p. 690 (OOTP 35) - ‘Oh, you don’t know Potter as I do, Bellatrix,’ said Malfoy softely. ‘He has a great weakness for heroics; the Dark Lord understands this about him. …’

Bellatrix seems to understand something about Harry that Lucius doesn't, though. Bellatrix seems to feel that Harry would prefer a quick death for Neville than to see him end up like his parents in St. Mungos.

p. 706 (OOTP 35) – ‘No, let’s see how long Longbottom lasts before he cracks like his parents … unless Potter wants to give us the prophecy.’

p. 706 (OOTP 35) – ‘Now, Potter, either give us the prophecy, or watch your little friend die the hard way!’ Harry did not have to think; there was no choice.”

Bellatrix seems so unballanced and unable of controling her emotions long enough to think in OOTP but surprisingly up to a battle of wits with Snape in HBP. This may be one of our few hints that there is method and logic behind the Trix's facade of irrational unreasoned madness.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The DE were paired up the following way (OOTP 35, p. 695):
– Nott,
- Bellatrix Black Lestrange, Rodolphus Lestrange,
- Crabbe, Rabastan Lestrange,
- Jugson, Antonin Dolohov,
- Macnair, Avery,
- Rookwood,
- Mulciber, Lucius Malfoy;

Has anyone been able to keep track of them enough to determine who the baby DE is?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ANTONIN DOLOHOV - This guy is definately no slacker! He finds Harry, Hermione and Neville and yells to inform the other DE - which gives Hermione a chance to silence him - which doesn't seem to slow him down much. That spell he does on Hermione seems very much like Sectumsempra - what do you think?

And after he puts Hermione out of commission, he manages to break Neville's wand and nose in one blow and then turns his attention onto Harry and manages to convey his meaning without words. His only problem seems to be that he is easily distracted by baby DE so Harry gets away.

p. 698 (OOTP 35) – ‘Silencio!’ cried Hermione and the man’s voice was extinguished. He continued to mouth through the hole in his mask, but no sound came out. He was thrust aside by his fellow Death Eater.”

p. 698 (OOTP 35) - “But the Death Eater Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand; a streak of what looked like purple flame passed right across Hermione’s chest.”

p. 699 (OOTP 35) – “The Death Eater kicked out hard at Neville’s head as he emerged – his foot broke Neville’s wand in two and connected with his face. Neville gave a howl of pain and recoiled, clutching his mouth and nose.”

But that is not the last we see of Dolohov. Dolohov later makes short work of Moody before making Neville tap dance (like the spider in Junior's class in GOF) and then battling with Black. Black doesn't actually beat Dolohov - but Dolohov is felled by Harry while battling with Black.

The Jugson that Dolohov was paired with, we don't hear much from.

pp. 707-708 (OOTP 35) – “… he saw Moody’s magical eye spinning away across the floor. Its owner was lying on his side, bleeding from the head, and his attacker was now bearing down upon Harry and Neville: Dolohov, his long pale face twisted with glee.”

Hey everyone...sorry I haven't posted any thoughts to the wonderful theorizing happening...I've been majorly sick! Actually, I still am...this happens to be one of the few moments I don't feel so bad.

Anyway, I agree with vaudree...Hedwig Soars - I would like to read only 2 chapters a week juring December and then discuss how many chapter to read a week after that. Christmas is too hectic as it is, I think we need the time.

OK...on to this weeks chapters.

Ch.35 Beyond the Veil
-“[A Death Eater’s] foot broke Neville’s want in two and connected with his face.” (p.699) I think this is significant because Neville’s wand really wasn’t his wand; it’s his father’s. I think Neville will be important in book 7…maybe. He may, at least, become a better wizard with his own wand.
-OK, Sirius and Bellatrix are fighting and Bells hits Sirius with a “jet of red light.” (p.710) Then there is a moment where Harry and DD turn to see what happened then Sirius’s “body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch.” (p.710) Now, my question is, did Bella kill Sirius? Or did he die because he fell though the veil? Avada Kedavra is a green light; Bella’s was a jet of red! This could be significant.

Ch.36 The Only One He Ever Feared
-LV says “There is nothing worse than death” (p.718) then DD says, “You are quite wrong. // Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness-“ (p.718) DD also says “We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom.” (p.718) I tried to think what could destroy a person without killing them? The only thing I could think of would be to spare the life of your intended victim and then kill all his/her loved ones (ie: let Harry live and kill Ron and Hermione, etc.) and make them believe it’s their fault that their loved ones died. We kind of see a glimpse of this when Harry and company are first confronted by the Death Eaters. Harry thinks, “He had led his friends to their death for no reason at all…” (Ch.34, p.690) and again when Hermione gets hit, Harry says “Don’t let her be dead, it’s my fault if she’s dead…” (Ch.35, p.699)

Ch.37 The Lost Prophecy
I was going to say something about the prophecy, but after reading the whole chapter, it is, really, completely explained by DD. The only thing I would like to know is who overheard the first part of the prophecy? I think we find out in HBP but I can’t remember. “My – our – one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building. (p.743) Oh, and who caught the eavesdropper?

Ch.38 The Second War Begins
-“[Harry] hurled the mirror back into the trunk where it shattered.” (p.756) I said earlier that the Two-Way Mirror would be in book 7, obviously I was wrong!
-Nearly Headless Nick explains to Harry that a wizard chooses to become a ghost. He, himself, says he was afraid of death so he chose to become a ghost. So, do you become a ghost as soon as you die? Or only when you decide to be a ghost after?
-I love the going home scene in this book! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, you know! HAPPY HAPPY! I hope this is in the movie!

I'm actually on time this week! Yeppie!

Chapter 35

Trycki-I too believe that Nevilles wand will play a big role in Book 7 (I wish they would release a title at least, its killing me!). Since book 1 we've always been told that the wand chooses the wizard. I'm wondering why his gram didn't buy him a new one in the first place. Perhaps she's filling a void with her grandson to take the place of her son. I'm not sure. But I feel 100% that Neville will be a more powerful wizard when he gets his OWN wand.

Chapter 36

-Pg. 807 "He can't come back, because he's d-" and then Lupin was interrupted. I know Harry finishes off his sentence by saying "He-is-not-dead!" but are we sure that that was what Lupin was going to say. I don't think it is. I can't picture Lupin saying "He can't come back, because he's dead" but I'm not sure what he would have intended to say.

Trycki-DD's remarks to LV made me wonder as well and I think you make a good point. A lot of people would feel destroyed or consider it a punishment worse then death to have everyone they loved killed but not themselves. It makes for a lonely life. However, when I read "We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom" (Pg. 814) Notice when he implies that LV knows how to destroy a man without death he uses Tom. This makes me think that LV did this before he became LV...back when he was still Tom. Could he be referring to the fact that because's Toms parents abandoned him he (as he once was) was completely destroyed.

-Pg. 817 "And as Harry's heart filled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened..." One other thing I think will play a big role in book 7 is that Harry has the ability to feel emotion and love even when he thinks he's going to die. Something that LV cant even comprehend. LV will never be able to "use" Harry the way he desires because of that simple ability to love and care for those around him and those that are already dead.

Chapter 37

The prophecy is explained, to some degree, by DD but I still feel there is more to it then is explained. Something JKR is holding out on us. In HBP I think I remember that Snape overhead the prophecy but I'm not sure who caught him.

-Pg. 841 "Neither can live while the other survives" This has always confused me and from other threads that I have read it's by far the most confusing section of the whole prophecy. Some believe that they have to kill each other for it to be complete. I certainly hope not because I'd like to see Harry live. "...born to parents who had already defied Voldermort three times." I hope we find out exactly what happened during those 3 times.

-Pg. 843 "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries...that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death (Perhaps referring to the quote above when speaking to LV?), than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you posses in such quantities and which Voldermort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight (how did Harry save Sirius?). That power also saved you from possession by Voldermort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you." The room that DD refers to that holds "what resides in your heart" I think that Harry will try to get back to that room. Perhaps this will be his own weapon to use against LV in book 7.

Chapter 38
I agree, the last chapter always leaves me with a feeling of serene-ness...for about 5 minutes then I'm dying for the next book to come out. It made me happy that everybody was waiting for Harry. It showed him that you may have lost the whole of your real family but we're still here and we're your family too.

Trycki, hope it is not what my aunt and neice had, my mom has and my son is getting and I don't want - that is a bad one. Cheese cake is supposed to be easy on the throat. Be glad this is temporary!

JKR Webpage / FAQ / What is the significance of Neville being the other boy to whom the prophecy might have referred?

"As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters."

"Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar."

I get suspicious when DD thinks something and then later presumes that Voldemort thinks the same way.

Chapter 37

There seems to be three people that DD tells to cut some slack Snape (which I will deal with next week), Kreacher (who becomes Harry's property) and Petunia (who seems to know something she isn't telling Harry). And Harry's reluctance to put any of the blame for what happened to Snape on Black turn, after Black's suicide by cousin-like death, into a reluctance to hold Black responsible for anything at all.

We all have half-formed ideas of what the prophecy may mean so let's share them.

The prophecy refers to "the one" (which turns out to be Harry), "the other" (The Dark Lord), and the two parents of "the one" (which turn out to be James and Lily). Most people in their interpretations leave out the role of Harry's parents in interpreting the prophecy.

There are two literary terms I was exposed to in Critical Theory of English the concept of “the one” (which is cast into the foreground) and “the other” (which is the background) when we read stuff from literary critics constrasting the voices of the occidental versus the oriental, rich versus poor, men versus women and so forth (notice the "the" in both cases).

Many feel that “either” and “neither” refer to an epic battle between Harry and Voldemort which is to take place in the future and that this aspect of the prophecy is still in play. However, “either” and “neither” may not refer to Voldemort or Harry at all, but to Harry’s parents. If so, the last line would read “either (the father or the mother) must die at the hand of the other (Voldemort) for neither (the father or the mother) will live while the other (Voldemort) survives” – which is basically what happened the night Voldemort transferred his powers to Harry and Harry vanquished Voldemort the first time.

It seems that if Voldemort had stunned Lily (rather than killed her) that Harry would not have survived avada (though it doesn't seem to matter so much who killed James. There is also the clarification DD makes in HBP - that in this chapter he tells Harry everything he knows for sure, but in HBP he goes beyond that (so will deal with the scar there).

The idea that the events described in the prophecy took place the night the Potters were murdered explains two things from (OOTP 37) which otherwise would not make sense. First of all, it helps explains why DD was so sure that Voldemort was still alive. Secondly, DD says some things which may indicate that he wanted Voldemort to get the prophecy (which may mean that he had OP guard it to make the information in it seem more important than it was - Arthur falling asleep did not seem that big of deal).

pp. 730-731 (OOTP 37) – ‘And then you saw Rookwood, who worked in the Department of Mysteries before his arrest, telling Voldemort what we had known all along – that the prophecies held in the Ministry of Magic are heavily protected. …’

p. 731 (OOTP 37) – ‘… Only the people to whom they refer can lift them from the shelves without suffering madness: in this case, either Voldemort himself would have to enter the Ministry of Magic, and risk revealing himself at last – or else you would have to take it for him. …’

DD knew all along that only DD or Voldemort could pick up the prophecy and seems eager that it be Voldemort (rather than Harry). DD says that this is the weapon which Voldemort believed contained the knowledge of how to destroy Harry though in reading the prophecy, I don't see any knowledge in that regard (maybe I am blind to it). Didn't DD also say that there are other ways to destroy a man besides killing him - possibly to throw Voldemort off or to keep Voldemort thinking that the prophecy contained information that it didn't? DD presumes that Voldemort in invincible until the Horcruxes are destroyed.

p. 740 (OOTP 37) – ‘… This is the weapon he has been seeking so assidulously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you.’

p. 718 (OOTP 36) – ‘We both know that there are other ways of destroying a man, Tom,’ Dumbledore said calmly, …” / ‘Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit –’ (US, p. 814)

p. 718 (OOTP 36) – ‘There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!’ snarled Voldemort. ‘You are quite wrong,’ said Dumbedlore, …” / ‘Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much sores than death has always been your greatest weakness –’

Harry seems to care more about the lives of his loved ones than he does about his own life - and, it seems, so did Lily.

p. 736 (OOTP 37) – ‘But I knew, too, where Voldemort was weak. And so I made my decision. You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated – to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. …’

[quote] I tried to think what could destroy a person without killing them? The only thing I could think of would be to spare

You, unlike DD, have been influenced by the "Persons Case" involving Emily Murphy, Louise McKinney, Nellie McClung, Irene Parlby and Henrietta Muir Edwards where women became persons under the law. DD uses the words "man" and "human" and "greatest strength" to describe how Harry feels over the death of Black. Note the inference that Voldemort is no longer human nor a man?

pp. 725-726 (OOTP 37) – ‘There is no shame in what you are feeling, Harry,’ said Dumbledore’s voice. ‘On the contrary … the fact that you can feel pain like ths is your greatest strength.’ / ‘My greatest strength, is it?’

p. 726 (OOTP 37) – ‘Harry, suffering like this proves you are still a man! This pain is part of being human –’ ‘THEN – I – DON’T – WANT – TO – BE – HUMAN!’

NWBubbles, I thing you may have something here with your force "more terrible than death" (OOTP 37, p. 743; US, p. 843) since it is the power that "took" Harry to save Black (OOTP 37, p. 743) and seems also to be what DD is referring to when he speaks of "the power the Dark Lord knows not –’ (same page). Harry says that he does not have the power to possess others, but, as DD and you guys seem to be pointing out, he has the power to avoid being possessed.

There will be a debate next week over whether Bellatrix is still a person or not. She seems to realise that Harry loved her cousin - is she no longer a person and no longer human - or does she have a shred of humanity in her which makes her still a person. She still seems to know the differences between the two types of anger and which hurts more.

p. 715 (OOTP 36) – ‘Aaaaaah … did you love him, little baby Potter?’

p. 715 (OOTP 36) – ‘You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain – to enjoy it – righteous anger won’t hurt me for long – I’ll show you how it is done, shall I? I will give you a lesson –’

xxxxxxxxx

The most ironic thing in Chapter 37 is when Harry tells a Legilimen that he doesn't know what he is feeling. Phineas seems to feel that it is not so much that the adults don't understand how kids feel as it is that the kids don't want the adults to (which also seems to be the case here).

xxxxxxxxxx

What does DD mean that Harry is not as angry at DD as he should be? Is it just because it is him who insisted that he live with the Dursleys even knowing what he did about what life there would be like - or is it something else.

p. 727 (OOTP 37) – ‘Because you are not nearly as angry with me as you ought to be. If you are to attack me, as I know you are close to doing, I would have thoroughly earned it.’

When DD says that he saw himself in Harry - was it in Harry specifically or was it in "the one" that the prophecy referred to that he saw himself in?

p. 742 (OOTP 37) – ‘… He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far – something neither your parents, nor Neville’s, ever achieved.’

And ok it was Voldemort which chose Harry over Neville, but did DD do anything that would make that choice more likely (since he seems to think Harry had a better chance of defeating Voldemort than Neville)? Why didn't DD insist on being the Secret Keeper for the Potters - seems that DD also made a choice. Also, Voldemort did not know he was making a choice and I don't see him only wanting to get rid of one of the boys.

It could be that the "threat" had nothing to do with powerfulness but that Voldemort's minions would see Harry as a less worthy foe so the threat came from Harry's unworthiness or impureness. For a guy who wants to show off his power, he wanted Harry's death to be very quiet.

p. 742 (OOTP 37) – ‘He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him.’ said Dumbledore. ‘And notice this, Harry: he chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing) but the half-blood, like himself. …’

With Harry dead, all the focus of the OP would be on protecting Neville (if the part of the prophecy Snape did not overhear did not exist), so Voldemort is making a choice which to kill first while presuming that he could kill the other one second.

Vaudree and everyone else Hi all
I am flaking out on you guys right now. I am really sorry. Youre suggestion of 2 chapters a week is a great idea for me I dont know how you all feel about it though, I might actually be able to keep up with that.
I started this home improvement project the week right before Thanksgiving. What the hell was I thinking? We sanded hard wood floors. I still havent got my house completely dusted. Which is why I havent been on. If I pick up a HP book I cant put it down and I would never get anything done. So anyway I was just checking in to let you all know I havent dropped out. I am going to try to get caught up although I may skip forward a bit. Had to see what chapters we are doing. See you all again soon I hope.

December will be two chapters per week. We are all so busy!

I don't think we should assign anything the week of 12/22 - 12/29. Thoughts??

I hope everyone stays on board!

Professor Jamie , with all that sanding your place may not be completely dusted, but dusted enough not to need more of it. :evil If you can only read and add comments about one chapter a week that is good enough, if you can only read our stuff and comment on that - that is good enough.

Hedwig, let's see how we feel the prior week whether we wish to hold off on Chapters 7&8 (which don't strike me as all that heavy duty compared to other HBP chapters). Don't think that Bubbles would mind the week off though she may worry that a week off may be followed with an increase in the number of chapters we do period due to the rest everyone gets. The third option is to have CH 7 listed as optional for 15/22 and CH 8 listed as optional for 29/5 though both CH 7&8 still given as the assigned reading in 22/29 - and maybe a designate assigner for that week ( Trycki ?).

Christmas for me is staying up late Christmas Eve and getting up early Christmas morning, opening our stockings and then going over to my mom's and opening the regular presents there and maybe going home at 1 pm so that my brother and his wife and daughter can go and get less wonderful, though more expensive, presents from the other side (suggested what my mother got for my neice). After that it is fighting with my son for the computer, though since his friend got a wii for his birthday and probably will get more games for it for Xmas, don't see it as interfering with my chapters as long as there are only two of them.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



Not according to JKR on her webpage:

JKR: The mirror might not have helped as much as you think, but on the other hand, will help more than you think. You’ll have to read the final books to understand that! / Section: F.A.Q. / (SPOILER WARNING)

The note that Black leaves Harry brings up a few points - one is that James and Black tended to serve enough detentions that they came up with a way to communicate with each other when separated. Secondly, it seems that the mirror only works with it's twin - like the Vanishing Cabinet (and the Mirror of Erised may be there to throw us off in making us focus on the mirror aspect more than the twin aspect):

p. 756 (OOTP 38) – ‘This is a two-way mirror, I’ve got the other one of the pair. If you need to speak to me, just say my name into it; you’ll appear in my mirror and I’ll be able to talk in yours. …’

The other possibility is that this type of mirror was quite common during James's generation (though may have been discontinued since), though, unlike a cell phone, you could only talk to the person who had the other mirror (meaning that Harry would have to have a separate mirror to talk to Hermione than to talk to Ron). Didn't Penelope have a mirror?



That red spell was the one Black ducked before a different spell hit him. We are never told the colour of the spell that hit Black while he was mocking Bellatrix. Strange that Black was "laughing" when he died (the eyes widened which could be a sign of Black being dead when the spell hit) and Harry figured that Black would be "eager" to rejoin the battle after he died. Seems that Hagrid was right about how much Black liked dueling.

p. 753 (OOTP 38) – ‘Look …’ Hagrid leaned towards him across the table, ‘I knew Sirius longer ’n yeh did … he died in battle, an’ tha’s the way he’d’ve wanted ter go –’

p. 753 (OOTP 38) – ‘But still, Harry … he was never one ter sit aroun’ at home an’ let other people do the fightin’. He couldn’ve lived with himself if he hadn’ gone ter help –’


p. 710 (OOTP 35) – “Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix’s jet of red light: he was laughing at her.”

p. 712 (OOTP 36) – “… Lupin should stop pretending that Sirius – who was standing feet from them behind that old curtain – was not going to emerge at any moment, shaking back his dark hair and eager to re-enter the battle.”

Black seemed to be depressed for most of OOTP snapping out of it momentarily only when something exciting happened (ie people coming for Xmas). Even having Harry around (which according to the preOOTP hints he is the person who loves Harry the most) did not seem to keep him happy for long.

I can't help thinking of John Wayne and "The Shootist" and the song that reminds me most of Black is Bon Jovi's "Blaze of Glory." Maybe, even though Hagrid backtracks a bit to spare Harry's feelings, this was the way Black wanted to go. Strange, though, how DD let those two keep dueling after everyone else had stopped - that he did not do to Bellatrix what he did to the rest of the DE.

Note what Harry argues here - that Black left Grimmauld Place, not to save him, not because Snape called him a coward but because he hated the place and DD made him stay there.

p. 735 (OOTP 37) – ‘… He had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a living reminder of the home Sirius had hated.’ ‘Yeah, he did hate it!’ / ‘You made him stay shut up in that house and he hated it, that’s why he wanted to get out last night –’

Hedwig Soars - I think we should wait until the 22nd to decide if we should read anything or not. We'll have a better feel as to what's going on in our lives since everybody's Christmas celebrations are different. Two chapters a week until then is perfect.

RE Locked Room in the Department of Mysteries
DD says Harry has this "power" in him that is in this mysterious locked room and that this "power" is why LV could not possess Harry for long because LV can't stand this "power." I always thought that this "power" was LOVE. It's the one thing that LV can't feel...he doesn't love, it's not in him.

JKR did say in an interview that Voldemort has never loved anyone - though she has never said whether or not Voldemort ever wanted anyone to love him truly (ie not as part of a con).

QUESTION: Has Voldemort or Tom Riddle ever cared for or loved anyone?

JKR: Now, that’s a cracking question to end with—very good. No, never. [Laughter.] If he had, he couldn’t possibly be what he is.

Section: News / Sunday 15 August 2004 / J K Rowling at the Edinburgh Book Festival

But what is it that Voldemort can't stand about love - is it happy faces or is there a dark side to love? DD talks about the room and the "more wonderful and more terrible" stuff we've all picked up on, then he talks about this force leading Harry to save Black and that his heart saved him from possession - all this after telling Harry that his "suffering" and capacity to "feel pain like this" makes him human and a man.

When Voldemort tried to possess Harry - Harry's heart was not all rainbows and care bears at the time - Harry was hurting so bad over losing Black that he wanted to die that moment to end the pain. JKR said that Harry's emotions are always very near the surface, but Voldemort's words being welcomed by Harry so greatly - that Harry would be willing to sacrifice himself so they both could die at that moment - I don't think Voldemort expected that.

p. 720 (OOTP 36) – “Let the pain stop, thought Harry … let him kill us … end it, Dumbledore … death is nothing compared to this … And I’ll see Sirius again …”

p. 720 (OOTP 36) – “…And I’ll see Sirius again … And as Harry’s heart filled with emotion, the creature’s coils loosened, the pain was gone: …” (US, p. 817)

p. 723 (OOTP 37) – “If his surroundings could have reflected the feelings inside him, the pictures would have been screaming in pain.”

p. 726 (OOTP 37) – 'You do care,’ / ‘You care so much you feel as though you will bleed to death with the pain of it.’

Some theories of Harry's power of love treat this "power" as if it is a super soaker that can be recharged through snogging Ginny - and that Voldemort is like the witch in the Wizard of Oz that melted to nothingness when hit with the water. If not this, what does this week tell us about love?

THIS WEEK ON LOVE

RE GOOD-BYE - DD is hinting that the old kiss and break-up strategy doesn't work with Voldemort. Seems that DD did not so much wish to create the impression that he has no further interest in Harry so much as he wanted people to think that he never had an interest in Harry. Why the distinction - has Voldemort come across this strategy before?

p. 729 (OOTP 37) – ‘… I was sure that if he realised that our relationship was – or had ever been – closer than that of headmaster and pupil, he would seize his chance to use you as a means to spy on me. …’

p. 730 (OOTP 37) – ‘… So you see, I have been trying, in distancing myself from you, to protect you, Harry. An old man’s mistake …’

DD also talks of Voldemort using himself as bait to trick DD into killing Harry (if Voldemort was seeking the prophecy to know how to kill Harry, does this indicate that he thinks that DD knows how to kill Harry?). But what else would Voldemort gain if DD killed Harry? And does it have to be Harry - would Draco work just as well? And Voldemort left Harry's body prematurily - did Voldemort plan to make DD due with Harry to the death? Is Voldemort suspicious as to DD's motives for not trying to kill him - Voldemort has known DD for years.

p. 730 (OOTP 37) – ‘Voldemort’s aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. He hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would sacrifice you in hope of killing him. …’

p. 720 (OOTP 36) – ‘Kill me now, Dumbledore …’ / ‘If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy …’

RE SORRY FOR LUNA Harry, who is avoiding the Great Hall Feast bumps into Luna and feels "pity" which is usually a nastier word than empathy. But why would "pity" be such an odd feeling - Harry felt sorry for Dobby, for Snape, even for Ron at one point or another.

p. 760 (OOTP 38) – “An odd feeling rose in Harry; an emotion quite different from the anger and grief that had filled him since Sirius’s death.”

p. 760 (OOTP 38) – “It was a few moments before he realised that he was feeling sorry for Luna.” / “Harry looked at her and the new feeling of pity intensifired rather painfully.”

Then there are Harry's words. Let's forget how Luna plans to get her stuff back for a moment. There is the strong sense in his voice that these people who take Luna's stuff and call her names are the odd ones.

Harry offers twice to help her look for her stuff - when once would have sufficed. Harry doesn't seem to be expressing a desire to snog Luna nor is he have day fantasies about Luna that makes him hope that Mr Lovegood is not a Legilimens, but there seems to be a bit of longing to be with Luna at this moment.

p. 760 (OOTP 38) – ‘How come people hide your stuff?’ he asked her, frowning.”

p. 760 (OOTP 38) – ‘I think they think I’m a bit odd, you know. Some people call me “Loony” Lovegood, actually.’ / ‘That’s no reason for them to take your things,’ he said flatly. ‘D’you want help finding them?’

p. 760 (OOTP 38) – ‘Oh, no,’ she said smiling at him.

(cont)

Oh boy! pushed the wrong button so have to reconstruct. MAG nificent error!

THIS WEEK ON LOVE (includes RE GOOD-BYE, RE SORRY FOR LUNA, Re QUEEN/GINNY AND CASTLE, RE CHO AND DEATH, and RE WHAT VERNON IS NOT AWARE OF)

(cont) - Re SORRY FOR LUNA)

p. 760 (OOTP 38) – ‘Oh, no,’ she said smiling at him. ‘They’ll come back, they always do in the end. It was just that I wanted to pack tonight. Anyway … why aren’t you at the feast?’

p. 761 (OOTP 38) – ‘Are you sure you don’t want me to help you look for your stuff?’ he said. ‘Oh no,’ said Luna. ‘No, I think I’ll just go down and have some pudding and wait for it all to turn up … it always does in the end … well, have a nice holiday, Harry.’

Note that earlier Ginny thought she was sharing a moment with Harry when she "caught his eye" but Harry did not seem to find Luna's summer plans quite as pathetically hilarious as Ginny did. Some argue that Harry is too full of grief to laugh at something that was obviously funny, but Harry later describes Luna's beliefs concerning death as "extraordinary" which is the most flattering word for "different" and also the word Luna uses to describe her mother. Before Harry was even introduced to Luna, Ginny introduced her as being sort of a joke, but now that things have gone full circle, Harry seems to have a different opinion of Luna:

p. 747 (OOTP 38) – “Ginny caught Harry’s eye and looked away quickly, grinning.”

On the train ride home, everyone who was in the train compartment on the ride to Hogwarts and at the Ministry is there, except Luna. Yet Ginny seems to be engaging in Lunaish behavour - ok Ginny may just happen to be talking "vaguely" to annoy brother dearest, but this is the first time we see Ginny read the Quibbler at all - and once she is doing it upside down:

p. 762 (OOTP 38) – “Hermione was reading the Daily Prophet again, Ginny was doing a quiz in The Quibbler and Neville was stroking his Mimbulus Mimbletonia, …”

p. 763 (OOTP 38) – “She scratched her nose absently with the end of her quill, turned The Quibbler upsidedown and began marking her answers.”

p. 763 (OOTP 38) – ‘… would you say he’s better?’ asked Ginny vaguely.”

Re QUEEN/GINNY AND CASTLE - Seems as if chess reflects what is going on around the players. However, while the "Queen" of (OOTP 31) seemed to be Hermione, the "Queen" of (OOTP 38) seems to be Ginny which Ron seems to be nudging towards Harry's "Castle" - while giving Harry "furtive looks" hinting that it is time to make his move. Note that when Cho goes by that she may be the "pawn" (or a pawn) chased away by Ron's knight. However, the best proof that the chess match reflects Ron's intentions of an honourable match for little sister is that the game is toppled when Ginny mentions that she is dating Dean.

p. 763 (OOTP 38) – ‘Well, I always thought he was a bit of an idiot,’ he said, prodding his queen forwards towards Harry’s quivering castle. ‘Good for you. Just choose someone – better – next time.’ He cast Harry an oddly furtive look as he said it.”

p. 763 (OOTP 38) – ‘WHAT?’ shouted Ron, upending the chessboard: Crookshanks went plunging after the pieces and Hedwig and Pigwidgeon twittered and hooted angrily from over head.”

We also find out that Ginny and Michael broke up at the Gryffindor/Ravenclaw game, then there was exams and Harry et al went to the Ministry, and then the failed "caught eye" and only now does Ginny mention that she is now dating Dean (which makes it seem strange that she is sitting with them rather than Dean). Do you think that Ginny started dating Dean before the "caught eye" incident or, like me, after (which means that this particular chess game would be lost even if Ginny did not topple it)? Ginny may be playing her own - er - chess game here, though.

RE CHO AND DEATH - Harry seems to attribute his loss of interest in Cho to Black's death and the news about the prophecy, but that may not be entirely true. It seems to me that Harry's feelings were very diminished towards Cho even before that. Harry seems to question the "cheerful" dig towards Cho in a way that seems to show both that he realizes that he and Cho were never meant to be and that her tears had very little to do with that.

p. 603 (OOTP 30) – ‘… Bradley … Davies … Chang,’ he said, and Harry felt his stomach perform, less of a back flip, more a feeble lurch as Cho walked out onto the pitch, her shiny black hair rippling in the slight breeze.”

p. 762 (OOTP 38) – “Harry was surprised to find that this information did not hurt him at all. Wanting to impress Cho seemed to belong to a past that was no longer quite connected with him; so much of what he had wanted before Sirius’s death felt that way these days …”

p. 763 (OOTP 38) - ‘You’re well out of it, mate,’ said Ron forcefully. ‘I mean, she’s quite good-looking and all that, but you want someone a bit more cheerful.’ ‘She’s probably cheerful enough with someone else,’ said Harry, shrugging.”

The other word of interest is "impress" in that Cho was always someone he felt he needed to impress rather than someone he felt he could be himself with. This need to impress Cho seems to diminish over time. We start with Harry (who had first been introduced to Luna as "Loony" think of her as "Loony" when she and Neville get in the way of her trying to impress Cho (OOTP 10, p. 170) , and then a conflict between the desire to please Cho and something that doesn't makes sense to him when he brings up Nargles just as Cho is about to kiss him (OOTP 21, p. 403) to the scene in this chapter where Luna mentions the nickname and Harry seems to feel that it is not right for people to call her that.

It may not be anything more than friendship, but it seems that as H

(cont)

It may not be anything more than friendship, but it seems that as Harry's desire to please Cho goes down, his ability to see Luna as a person (and not how others see her) goes up.

RE WHAT VERNON IS NOT AWARE OF - OK Harry, who tends to see his aunt as his uncle's anorexic Mini-Me presumes that Petunia just feels ashamed of being seen in the company of a bunch of Oddballs. But this could be the old present and dismiss that JKR is famous for. But what does Moody mean when he says that what Vernon is "not aware of" is volumnous - is it just a threat of the power of the Magical world to force Vernon to behave?

What if what Vernon is "not aware of" involves Petunia and it is Tonks saying "that's not the point" - indicating that he has heard the whole story but finds it irrelevant to the situation that Petunia is reacting to rather than the colour of Tonks's hair. Closing one's eyes is more likely an expression of pain.

p. 765 (OOTP 38) – ‘I expect what you’re not aware of would fill several books, Dursley,’ growled Moody. ‘Anyway, that’s not the point,’ interjected Tonks, whose pink hair seemed to offend Aunt Petunia more than all the rest put together, for she closed her eyes rather than look at her.”

p. 766 (OOTP 38) – “Petunia whimpered piteously.”

And does Tonks being able to change her appearance at will have anything to do with it - Tonks back was turned to Harry if Harry could see Petunia's facial reaction - but could Tonks have hinted at something? I can't prove that she altered her facial features in any way, but she did have the opportunity.

We learned earlier that, unlike Vernon, Harry expected Petunia to show more affection towards him than she did - that he desired for her to love him. DD already admitted that he knew what Harry would be in for when he left him at the doorstep - and Harry admits that it was Vernon who wanted him to leave but Petunia who insisted that he stay:

p. 737 (OOTP 37) – ‘... I suspected the Dementor attack might have awoken her to the dangers of having you as a surrogate son.’ ‘It did,’ said Harry quietly. ‘Well – my uncle more than her. He wanted to chuck me out, but after the Howler came she – she said I had to stay.’

Why did DD feel that such an awakening occurred only after Dudley was attacked. Did Petunia not know that those who seek to hurt Harry may also hurt Dudley? And it seems that Petunia's silence on the issue would have resulted in Vernon being chucked from the house - making Petunia the only thing standing between Harry having or not having the protection afforded him through his mother's blood.

But is Petunia choosing because she loves Harry or because some secret is more important than even Dudley's life?

Hi there everyone, I'm MAG without nificent:)
I'm willing to join you in HBP reading&discussion.
I'd like to start with answering to my dear debating friend Vaudree's questions:


I don’t think Voldemort was trying to get hold of the Prophecy in order to learn how to kill Harry. He already knows why he couldn’t kill him the first time. He wanted to learn the prophesied power Harry is possesing which will ‘vanguish’ him.
What will Voldemort gain if Dumbledore killed Harry? I think at this point, like all of us, Voldemort doesn’t know about Dumbledore’s knowledge of Horcruxes. Otherwise he wouldn’t have risked coming back to posses Harry and challenge Dumbledore. Think about a weaker and less knowledgeable Dumbledore in Voldemort’s mind, who kills Harry with the hope of killing the evil. What will happen?
Well, Voldemort’ll kill two birds with a single stone. He’ll get rid of Harry, the Boy Who Lived and Dumbledore, whom he feared the most, will be a murderer. No Harry, who unknowingly threatens him and no Dumbledore, who willingly threatens him. And Lord Voldemort will rise again, this time for good.

RE SORRY FOR LUNA

Luna is bullied. And, as Harry has the first hand experience of being constantly bullied, he knows how it feels, and therefore he knows how Luna feels. It’s odd, because it’s the first time Harry realizes they have something in common other than the near death experience they had.
It’s like when Susan Bones realized how it felt being like Harry, being exposed to whole school.
It’s like what Harry felt after he found out about Neville’s parents in GoF:
He often got sympathy from strangers for being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville’s snores, he thought that Neville deserved it more than he did. Pg. 527
With the shared bullying experience and later learning about her mother’s death, losing a parent/parents experience, he starts seeing the things which make Luna ‘Loony’, and he accepts her as a whole. ‘Understanding is the first step to acceptance’ said the Greatest Wizard ever known, who died in June, 1997 :)

I’m delibrately skipping all Ginny parts, Lunaish Ginny included, *first Mary-Sueish and now this, wonder what’s next* for the fear of turning this proper discussion platform into something veery different.:)
But I must admit, I very much liked your Chess analogy.


Cho was Harry’s first crush, whom he started to like for her good looks, even before exchanging a word or two with her. How old was he, 13? He never had the opportunity to get to know her. And Cho was stucked with ‘The Boy Who Lived’ Harry not the original one. If it wasn’t for Cho’s encouragement, he might have easily forgotten her.
Cho sought for a replacement of her dead Hogwarts Champion. And Harry wished for the girl who used to walk the corridors holding hands.....this time with him.
Harry and Cho lost interest in each other after the Madam Puddifoot fiasco.

RE WHAT VERNON IS NOT AWARE OF

I’m among the ones who are expecting a hugely important revelation from Petunia in the last book.
A revelation she even kept hidden from her darling Vernonikins. I’m inclined to think that it has got something to do with providing Harry a home and their (Dursleys) protection.
Petunia is the only living relative of Harry, who protects him with her blood. What do you think would have happened to Harry if Petunia died, either by a murder or by a natural cause?