Discussion: The 'Phoenix' files

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

SPosts 1701-1725

SueB - Excellent points!!! I think that you have hit on a critical point - JKR's message, reiterated in different way, over and over again, is that there are no short cuts, no easy solutions.

Furthermore, and this touches on what WitchyWays in her post in this same range, people don't just change their personalities or loyalties without a powerful impetus. JKR has been providing us with information about what drives different charcters. Snape is driven by anger, jealousy, etc. He isn't going to suddenly turn out to be charming. The same goes for Draco Malfoy. He has already shown what path he is going to take, bar a house falling on him, so to speak - he will seek to avenge the "wrong" done to his father.He has every reason to be loyal to his father. The same holds true with Dudley. Even if he were to be discovered to have magical power, he would not suddenly become a Harry Potter fan. He would either reject his newly discovered ability as freakish, or he would grab the power and become a very dark wizard. The only way he would align himself with Harry would be if his parents totally rejected him and Harry helped him through that - a very complex situation for JKR to work out.

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 9:30 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

1726-1750 Range:

Re: Fawkes - I have long held that Fawkes did not come to Harry's aid in the Chamber of Secrets ONLY because of Harry's loyalty to DD.Yes, DD did say that only such loyalty could have summoned Fawkes, but this does not mean that loyalty was the only reason Fawkes came. I am convinced that his has a lot to do with Harry's wand having a feather from Fawkes. Through Harry's wand, I surmise, there is a link established between him and Fawkes. Of course, this means that there is also some tie between Fawkes and Voldemort since Voldemort's wand also has a a feather from Fawkes.

Re: Harry/Ron/Hermione - Eklektik - I agree with you totally. Your observations are keen and point to the underlying psychology involved.

Flitterbottom - Thanks for the observation about Crookshanks and Mundungus being in the same room at the same time - I think that settles it - the reference to Mundungus being bandy-legged is a red herring.

Re: Fred and George - I can only suspect that they will play a very major role in upcoming books; and that the role they play will have everything to do with their joke shop. Their treats and whatnot would make great weapons.

Re: S.P.E.W. - Yes, I suspect, in fact, that it is S.P.E.W. that will get the elves to align themselves with DD, and Hermione will be the ambassador who forges the alliance. Of course, DD's hiring of Dobby and his taking Winky in, given her present condition will be major factors too. Hermione, along with Arthur Weasley, might also be instrumental in working with Muggles.

I still have no idea about what Dudley might have seen. I only have a sarcastic response - not (good) enough presents at Christmas or his birthday?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 9:56 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Range 1751-1775

Re: Lily Potter - I didn't catch the red hair part. That could be an important clue. What I found significant was the fact that Lily hated James. Her propensity to come to the resuce is also important, I think, but it is her animosity toward James that I think will be relevant later - it is a character defining matter.

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 10:06 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Newt Scamander - what a wonderful idea! Thank you for listing the lessons learned. AND something does jump out at me.... the PLACES,

1.trapdoor
2.bathroom tunnel
3.tunnel under weeping willow
4.graveyard
5.basement of MOM

They are all below or represent something below. Any thoughts?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 10:13 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Barty Crouch made very clear his reasons for giving Neville the book - to get to Harry.

The piece about McGonagal's "carrier advice" being cited by JKR is absolutely important - and I must point out that McGonagal says here that she will make sure that Harry achieve his goal is the central statement here.

I absolutely agree with Ima Quidditch Fan about Voldemort's most likely strategy. Such a strategy would be imperative for weakening not only Harry's external guard (those loyal to him), but also his innerself.

Harry and DD are the only ones who know the content of the prophecy. Of that I am quite certain. We see no evidence to the contrary, and the fact that DD was there when the prophecy was made leaves him as the only one who could know.

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 10:30 PM EST

Order of Merlin, 2nd Class

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1782

Juno Puddifoot says:

Here is a link re the change of name

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020123.html

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 10:33 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Petunia is doomed, I'm afraid. I think Eclektik.I suspect that when Petunia gets it, DD will place Harry with the Weasley's at some location like #12 - as concealed as possible, or he might just keep him at Hogwarts. Will Hogwarts become a battleground? I think it likely.

I could be wrong, and if someone can cite a reference, please do, but I think that the text says that magical births are recorded into the Hogwarts list. The MoM list is of known wizards and witches, which could easily mean that they are not recorded until the child goes to Hogwarts. It seems that only then does the Reasonable REstriction of Underage Magic come into play. Hence, Mark Evans would not have been listed up until now. It is only this Summer that he will get his letter, if he is indeed a wizard. This, by the way, would NOT be "later in life."

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 10:44 PM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

ok this is absoulty dumbfounded of me asking..but what in the world is the red-herring....and I don't think harry will die...even though sybill trewlaney is somewhat a fraud she admitted to harry he will live a ripe old age or something...I want to believe trelawney lol

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:08 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Kadyak - I agree Petunia is history.

Does anyone have an idea HOW Harry knew that Dudley had beat up Mark Evans? He just says, "beat up another 10 year old? I know you did Mark Evans?" Dudley goes on to say, "He cheeked me." I am guessing here, but does that mean he smarted off? Must be UK talk. Do ya'll know?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:15 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Sirius-Ella - something that distracts attention from the real issue

I hope that helps... many of the passages in the series have meant to lead us to a wrong conclusion so that we are surprised in the end. Example: Book 1, Snape is trying to get the stone... but he wasn't it was Quirrell.

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:24 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

I'm sorry, but I have not tracked this thread about Harry being doomed. I couldn't find the initial discussion. Could someone summarize for me?

Polyjuice13 - I believe you are quite correct. Petunia's attitude would be a determining factor in what Dudley would do with magic.

Ima - I am afraid that the hope of James somehow being alive is wishful thinking. It goes against JKR's statements and is not a reasonable development.

At the same time, I think you could be on to something with the Mimbulus Mimbletonia being able to help with lycanthropy - maybe even being a cure. A possibility also with helping Neville's parents. Anyone thought of rearrangng letters of the name?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:25 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

phoenixashes - Yes, I have it... I posted about the book some 1000 posts or so ago. It is awesome, but I wonder if they still believe the theory... You do? I want to, but after OOP I am starting to doubt. Why would he still not tell Harry? Why would he not tell Sirius?

Also, have you read the Hidden Key?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:27 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Ima - "cheek" is a British expression for insolence. You find it also in LotR. I suspect that the origin of the term comes from challenging to a duel. One finds the word as a noun, adjective and verb. This word is not unknown in the U.S., though it is not as common.

I think Harry knew about Dudley because he was in the right place a the right time. I suspect that he was out on a walk to get out of the house and deliberately or accidentally witnessed the event.

I have a new question: Assuming that Mark Evans is indeed related, and I am sure he is, will Harry be the one to figure it out?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:32 PM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Something is wrong with my post that begins, "Petunia is doomed." Something is missing in that line, but I am not sure what. Just skip to "I suspect..."

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:34 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

phoenixashes - I agree, and I think that combining the soft warning she gives in interview, it must be fact. I just think that maybe, if the time turner is invovled it won't mean exactly what we think it will... perhaps Harry as we know him dies, but he saves baby Harry and thus our favorite character lives, a different life, but better.

See?

Kadyak - GREAT idea about anagram of Neville's name, by the way, what is his middle name? I thought we saw it at one point. Is the initial R?
Off the top of my head -
I get
Voldemort (missing d and r - why I asked about middle name)
Ointment (possible)
emotion
eminent
live
evil
love

Your thoughts?

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:44 PM EST

Order of Merlin, 2nd Class

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1782

Juno Puddifoot says:

mimbulous mimbletonia ,... haven't rearranged letters was thinking more of the latin if there is any such thing ... only thing that sounds out, sort of, is tonia for tonic. Neville does say that it has defensive properties.

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:47 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Kadyak - about Neville Longbottom anagram

What about: Glob_l Love Ointment

If it could JUST be Neville A. Longbottom!

Well? I have been thinking that the plant most likely helps with memory... his is better and maybe he could cure his parents. BUT maybe he will have a formula that will cause all races to LOVE each other.

Posted Jul 13, 2003 at 11:59 PM EST

Order of Merlin, 2nd Class

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1782

Juno Puddifoot says:

Ima, maybe you're right about the plant and memory, I brought up Barty/Crouch thinking maye he did something (which eased Neville's mind because as I mentioned, Harry notices he's sleeping better in GoF and this led to the improved memory) ... ooh yes, kadyak, yes I know JK makes it clear why Crouch is helping Moody. Anyway now I thnk it is the plant :)

I would rather dwell on many smaller aspects than attempt to create a definitive plot analysis at this particular point.

The time turner might also explain why Harry knows about Mark Evans, and how he gets the Marauders map back ... lol

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 12:13 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Kadyak - will Harry be the one to figure out the relation of Mark? Good question. I tend to think not... I think Mark and his family already know. I bet Petunia does not like them and therefore never sees them or mentions them, much like her sister.

I guess that Lily and Petunia's dad is a sqib with siblings... one Mark's line, possible sqib there too. AND two Snape's dad (wizard or not, he was abusive), Snape changed his name from Perseus Evans. (I would crack up if little Mark turned out to be Snape's nephew)

I have wildly speculated that the Evans family is larger than Petunia would like it to be.

I think it would be a hoot if other Evans came to visit Harry over the summer, and let him know one of them will be at Hogwarts. :)

Oh, and I think the Evans family carry the Slytherin bloodline.

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 12:20 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Puddifoot, I like the way you think! I think the analysis is buried in the details. Do you think that anagram is too far off?

Neville COULD create an ointment that helps people love others.... More likely the memory.

Maybe his memory improved because his confidence did.

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 12:25 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

About the Mimbulus mimbletonia - possible cure for below.
(Page 393 US)
See below Harry is reading about potions and not paying attention...
'these plants are mosts efficacious in the inflaming of the brain, and are therefore much used in Confusin and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness...'

(I wonder if someone (Snape) was giving some of the scurvy-grass, lovage or sneezewort to Order members.)

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 12:37 AM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Ima - Actually it was for Mimbulus Mimbletonia that I was suggesting the letters. I suppose it might reveal something about the plant. At the same time, the formula for how to rearrange the letters might be rather complex - something from arithmancy. I was inspired by Tom Maravolo Riddle.

WitchyWays - Very insightful response. It is rather fun to imagine Harry giving Dudley what he has coming to him. Regardless of the Restriction on Underage Wizardry, Dudley should feel lucky each day he goes to bed in one piece, or as a human being!

As an adult reader, I really appreciate your insights into the difference in the climax in OotP. I think there is something very important there. Remember in GoF when Harry comes out of the lake and Ron chides him for taking the mersong seriously and consequently acting the hero; only then to say, something like "you weren't being thick afterall"? I think this is an issue that Harry needs to deal with. It is a very admirable and noble impulse, and it's not fake nobility; nevertheless, he may have to think it through a little so that he doesn't once again lead people into danger based on a false premise spurred by that impulse.

You are also very observant in commenting about Harry not being able to do it all on his own anymore. Harry, very understandably, does not wish to seem weak. He doesn't like to admit when things aren't going well inside - when he's confused, unsure of himself, or simply in anguish. In CoS Dumbledore asks him directly, "Is there something you wish to tell me?" He says no - and I doubt it is coincidental that this conversation is IDENTICAL to the conversation he witnesses between DD and young Tom in Tom's diary (though I haven't figured out the significance there). Harry needs to learn that it's not a weakness to admit that you need help - that you're over your head. At this point, I fear that if Harry were literally over his head (drowning), he still wouldn't seek help and that could be his downfall, as well as that of others around him.

I haven't seen anything yet that tell me that Harry is going to die in the end, but I do think he has a lot more pain to suffer and he better learn that his friends, both peers and adults, are there to give him that help. If he can do this, he can become a very able, powerful leader.

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 1:40 AM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

In fact, it was the fact that while the "-us" is a Latin noun form, the overall words didn't sound like real Latin that made me wonder about rearranging the letters. I just don't have the inclination to try it at the moment.

The point about those plants is one that bugged me as I was reading. Is it just a coincidence that Harry reads about those plants while he is having just those problems? I DON'T THINK SO! In fact, I must wonder if Snape didn't deliberately present the clue to Harry - like he did with the werewolf essay in PoA.

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 2:16 AM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

Sorry, this is a little long:

Some people have said that they enjoy speculating for the fun of speculating - to while the time away. Great! Have fun. In that case, the wild nature of some speculations is unimportant - the point is simply to let your mind travel in a way that is entertaining.

I tend to be more into trying to figure out plausible theories based on evidence (but not always - letting your mind wander down fascinating alleys IS fun!). So, to those of the same mind frame I ask a question: what is the basis of our theorizing?

It seems to me that we must recognize that for the most part, the world of Harry Potter lies within the text. It is important to derive data from the data. At the same time, the text itself is not the only source of data we have. We have also an oral tradition outside the text, and the best part about it is that the source of this oral tradition is the author herself. Her comments, while usually cryptic are definitive sources of information and provide a context in which to understand a datum from the text.

I hope people who are not Christian or religious at all won't be offended, but I can't help notice that it's rather like biblical studies. The mindset with which one approaches the text dictates how much evidence a person will take in, and how the person will weigh various pieces of evidence. For example, Protestants confine themselves to the text of the Bible. Everything one needs to know is there. Orthodox and Catholics notice however that the text itself points to something beyond itself, to an oral tradtion. (St. Paul tells Timothy (?) to guard what has been given to him (Tradition) whether in epistles or by word-of-mouth.) St.Paul also refers to the fact that he received his teaching (it was "handed over" (traditur)to him. In one case, he says, however, that he did not receive his teaching from men, but from the Lord Himself in a vision.

In the case of our HP studies, JKR is "god." Her comments in interviews carry the same as what St. Paul receives in a vision from the Lord directly. At the same time, such comments on the part of JKR are extra-textual. They are not part of the HP text itself, but form an "oral tradition" and our relating those comments is the passing on of that tradition. Being part of the HP Tradition these comments are of equal importance to the text. In some cases they are even more important; in particular when it comes to clarifying something ambiguous within the text.

If we wish to develop solid theories, we need to consider what is in the text and what comments JKR has made (which people are doing). At the same time, we need to look beyond the simple words, and read between the lines. What do the actions and behaviors of characters tell us? Referring to biblical studies again, one cannot totally discern the message of Jesus Christ from his words; one must ask, what do his actions say? Of what significance is it that the evangelists focused on a particular event like the Transfiguration? Not only is this mentioned in Matthew, Mark and Luke, but St. Peter also mentions it in one of his epistles. This event impacted him. What can we learn from this?

In HP then, what do the behavioral patterns of a character tell us? What might we learn from examining the actions taken by DD in response to various situtations? I focus on DD because his actions are so deliberate - never rash. They point, very often, to a knowledge or awareness that he has of something beyond what is has so far been stated. Examining his actions, gestures, etc. can give us insight way beyond the words he might utter. Of course, the same thing applies to all characters to one degree or another. Unfortunately in some cases, as with Snape so often, the actions or gestures or facial expressions point no further than the character's own hang-ups.

Once again, I don't wish to deny anyone the fun of letting themselves get carried away with amusing fantasies. It's the sign of a good sense of humour and a good imagination, at the very least. HAVE AT IT! Hey, I used to love to make up fanfiction in my mind about what might happen to Mrs. Cravits in "Bewitched" if she ticked off the wrong witch or warlock; or about how seeing something might totally freak her out - that was really fun to think about. "Aaabnnerrr!" Unfortuntately, I don't have time to entertain wild notions and serious thought, so I have chosen to stick with the serious stuff. For those others who wish to restrict themselves to serious analysis - at least part of the time - I hope this has been something to think about in terms of a methodology.

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 3:05 AM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 164

Kadyak says:

BTW - Many comments reflect the methodology I just described. Some however, seem to be a bit off base without seeming to be deliberately wild. I hope everyone will simply take this for food for thought.

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 3:17 AM EST

Imelda Moonshine says:

I reckon that next year Harry will be a temporary DADA teacher!Just look how successful the DA was, I bet they all get Outstanding in their OWLS!And who else is going to be dumb enought to take up the post?Can you imagine Malfoy's face, being taught by Harry!?!

Posted Jul 14, 2003 at 3:38 AM EST