Discussion: The 'Phoenix' files

Heir of Slytherin

House: Slytherin
Points: 5499

Spazzingduck says:

I just finished reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix for the third time, and I have to say it is the best book ever. But I made some huge mistakes while reading it the first time, and I want to give some advice to Potter fanatics everywhere about reading book six. This is the first and most important: NEVER flip through to see what happens in the end. I did this with Phoenix and it ruined the book for me. As soon as I got home from Barnes & Noble at midnight, I started flipping through the book. And I found out that Sirius Black had died before I even read the first chapter. I am SO ashamed of myself. The second bit of advice is this: when you are in the middle of reading the book on the day it came out, do not let your parents drag you along to buy a new car. I was right to the point where Harry had his first detention with Umbridge, and I had to wait FIVE HOURS before I could read again. I never knew it took so long to buy a car. And one more random thing: RON AND HERMIONE, GET TOGETHER ALREADY!

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 4:44 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 771

Dragan Glas says:

First of all - the books are the only source of facts for discussion; the films are irrelevant, so don't confuse yourself.

Newt
CoS - P248 (UK paperback edition)
Harry removes one of his *uniform* socks and stuffs the diary into it before chasing after Mr Malfoy and forcing it into his hand. Lucius tears the slimy, filthy sock off and tosses it aside to find that he's been given the diary. The sock's colour is not mentioned - at least, not here.

Regarding Harry's status as to whether he's born as Slytherin's heir and/or a Parselmouth.

There are four possible birth combinations:
1 Neither an heir or a parselmouth
2 Not an heir but is a parselmouth
3 Heir but not a parselmouth
4 Heir and parselmouth

Let's look at these:

1 Neither an heir or a parselmouth
If Harry was born in this state, then the only way he could open the chamber is through the failed curse making him an (honorary?) heir and actual parselmouth. He would have been able to call forth (if he knew what to say) and control the basilisk. If he couldn't call/control the basilisk, then he couldn't have opened the chamber in the first place. It is possible that because Tom Riddle was the first to call the basilisk in Harry's presence, he became it's legitimate controller, therefore negating Harry's being able to speak parseltongue to it and thus control it.

2 Not an heir but is a parselmouth
Again, the curse would be the only way for him to become an honorary heir and therefore open the chamber speaking parseltongue. Everything is the same as above.

3 Heir but not a parselmouth
Harry may be related to Slytherin but only became a parselmouth when a real one's curse failed. The interesting point, though, is this: Are all Slytherin's heirs parselmouths? Tom is one, but is this a case of the ability skipping generations (like Trelawney's) or is it only males? (No sexist insult intended!) If all Slytherin's heirs throughout history are parslemouths then this would not be considered a rare ability (unless it's kept quiet).

4 Heir and parselmouth
If he is both an heir and a parselmouth (whether by chance or as a male heir) then he would be able to open the chamber.

As with all four possibilities, Harry couldn't control the basilisk because Tom called it forth first.

Again, in all four cases, the Sorting Hat's wish to put him in Slytherin is understandable.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 4:46 PM EST

Head Girl

House: Gryffindor
Points: 479

eclektic says:

i think that there are a number of reasons why the sorting hat decided on putting harry in slytherin.

1. voldemort transferred some of his power in harry and the sorting hat could sense that.

2. he had certain attributes that slytherin himself prided; (quoting dumbledore loosely because i dont have my book with me) resourcefulness, determination and a certain disregard for rules.

the thing is, the qualities that you have doesnt neccessarily determine the person that you will become. rather what you make use of them ie your choices that count. i also feel that everyone does not have one overpowering personality trait. for example, hermione is both intelligent and brave but she ended up in gryffindor. its more of what u decide to do with the potential qualities that you have..

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 5:00 PM EST

Head Girl

House: Gryffindor
Points: 479

eclektic says:

fawkes23:
hey! welcome here then..
i dont think that anyone can chose one's heir. it just happens doesnt it? through the bloodline. tom is related to slytherin from his mother's side..

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 5:09 PM EST

Head Girl

House: Gryffindor
Points: 479

eclektic says:

it just so happens that his mother decided to marry a muggle instead of someone who was a pure blood wizard..

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 5:10 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Eclektic - Right-o, old chap. His mother was related to Slytherin (and thus I assume could have opened the Chamber herself), but married a Muggle and had Tom. I assume that this was because there were so few wizards left to choose from. I remember once Ron said that if wizards had concentrated so much on keeping blood pure and hadn't gone off and married Muggles, then the magic world would be extinct. This might be one of those cases.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 5:13 PM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

You know how everyone though Hagrid was the Heir of Slytherin...does that mean that Hagrid was in "Slytherin" or was he in "Gryffindor" ?
-sirius-ella-

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 5:58 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1012

Imperio says:

Sirius-ella- Everyone didn't know that Hagrid was the Heir of Slytherin, as that would have been very hard to prove, but he was found with a large creature (Aragog escaped though) and the attacks stopped afterwards (Tom Riddle stopped them because he needed Hogwarts to go on) so no one cared whether or not he was the real Heir of Slytherin.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 6:36 PM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

Imperio!: well, what house do you suspect Hagrid being in....?

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 6:45 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

I thought Hagrid said he had been in Gryffindor.

Also, in the Chamber, Tom tells Harry that he can't control the basalisk... but he could have been lying. As Harry took his word for it and didn't even try, we may never know.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 6:51 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Ima Quidditch Fan - I agree, I wonder what would have happened had Harry decided to try and control the basilisk even after Tom's warning. It's very possible that Harry would have been able to. The only reason I could see that Harry couldn't control it is if it only listens to the one who summoned it (which, of course, was Tom).

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 7:09 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Good point about the summoner, Newt.

I think it is interesting that Voldie controls Bellatrix... I have theorized that she is like medusa - snake headed.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 7:25 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 771

Dragan Glas says:

In an interview on the Barnes & Noble website, JKR said that Hagrid was in Gryffindor - see the following site:
(http://www.hagridshut.com/realworld/jkrowling/jk_bh.htm)

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 7:41 PM EST

Order of Merlin, 2nd Class

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1782

Juno Puddifoot says:

Poor old Spazzingduck, reading the death first lol. I had a nasty little accident in 'the Woes of Mrs Weasley' ... dropped the book and when I picked it up flicked to roughly the page I was up to, picked out a sentence, ONE sentence, and it was the one where Mrs Weasley is sobbing and Harry sees Ron's body 'obviously dead' crumpled on the floor. Well I just about wet my pants. Totally appalled and CONVINCED she'd killed Ron off.

Then had to go back READ it expecting the worst ... to discover the truth.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 7:48 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Puddifoot, that's horrible! :)

I really wanted to read the end first... I usually do, but I am glad I resisted this time. The death of Sirius was really sudden and unexpected... while it was aweful, it made the book better somehow. I agree with those that have said, Harry needed Sirius to die so that he could move on.

That really sounds terrible... I loved Sirius, he was one of my favorite characters, but it HAD to happen.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 7:55 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

HGreenbacker8705 , as always, a very valid point. It could have come from another source. Herpo the Foul, a Greek wizard and Parselmouth, bred the first one. (note: he lived 900 years)

(The first herpatologist!!!)

I would like to know more about the Dark Wizard that DD vanquished. Do you think he was a Parselmouth?

Puddifoot.. note that the basalisk is a brilliant green, and 'are uncontrollable except by Parselmouths.'

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:11 PM EST

Order of Merlin, 2nd Class

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1782

Juno Puddifoot says:

Heheh yeah it was pretty horrible Ima Quidditch Fan!!! I was sort of relieved she didn't dwell on the death, I had read it was 'gruesome' so I was getting pretty worried. My husbands been going through all the characters he hoped won't die (not finished it yet). Sirius was one of the last (hmm in fact he was the last cos he prefers Lupin) plus he thinks he has gone a bit strange and reckless ... its very difficult not giving the whole plot away.

That is interesting HGreenbacker. Hermione or Ron just said that it was 'really rare.'

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:16 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Do you think it possible that Lily was a MOM Obliviator? Olivander said her wand was good for Charm work.

My husband has just started reading the series... I have had so much fun with it, he had to find out why.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:22 PM EST

Order of Merlin, 2nd Class

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1782

Juno Puddifoot says:

Hmmm interesting Ima, I have been wondering about Grinden?/ Grindel? wald for awhile too. Does Wald mean forest in German or am I confused? I wonder too if Harry would have controlled the basalisk, although maybe it could have only one master or some such.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:23 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Puddifoot - I know you like wild theories, so I ask you... do you believe the one about James being Lupin? I SOOO hope that is it possible. AND I have just started re-reading at POA for every little thing he says. SO far, I think it could be... Yes, interview with JKR said we would never 'see' a live James or Lily... BUT if James is Lupin, well, erm, he's Lupin. ;)
Newt Scamander??? Do you have a theory on this?

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:30 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

HGreenbacker8705 - The Obliviators perform Memory Charms on Muggles who notice things wizards feel they should not see.

from Fantastic Beasts page xx

There is also and Office of Misinformation...

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:37 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 771

Dragan Glas says:

HGreenbacker
It was Herpo the Foul, see the following link:
(http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards-h-k.html)

See my earlier posts regarding Harry being an heir of Slytherin and the various replies (2295 onwards)

Puddifoot
"Wald" does mean forest - Grindelwald is a place in Switzerland.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:48 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Ima Quidditch Fan, could you jost my memory into all the points to the Remus-James theory? There's a couple things I have in my mind about it, but I need to make sure that I discuss the right points, not ones that I only vaguely remember and may not actually exist in the theory.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:49 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 771

Dragan Glas says:

HGreenbacker
James being Lupin? I don't follow that thought at all! Where does it indicate that in PoA?

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 8:58 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

HGreenbacker8705, interesting... couldn't modify Petunia? Because she is a witch? OR perhaps Lily just didn't want to hurt her in any way. Not sure, but I wonder if Hermione's parents have had their memories modified... of any of the other students with muggle parents.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 9:00 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Ima Quidditch Fan - I would be surprised if they modified just any old Muggle parents of wizards/witches. They probably make sure that no parents go off bragging about their child being part of the magic world to others, or parents who reveal facts to the public, but ones who can keep it secret probably aren't bothered with at all. If you'll remember, the Evans parents were "so glad to have a witch in the family," and I believe that they were a 100% Muggle family.

Posted Jul 19, 2003 at 9:02 PM EST