Discussion: The 'Phoenix' files

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

IF James had swtiched with Lupin for added security, then it fits that he wouldn't know...

Even though HE trusted Sirius, because of his family background, Lily may have felt an added precaution was necessary.

Also, the Lupin as James living with Lily... the could have switched and done the charm the night it happened as it was Halloween... they may have had a tip.

It is still possible.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 10:56 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

SueB, earlier posts, someone mentioned the chess game that Harry was playing... talking to his chess man and saying,"crush him he is nothing - a pawn."

I agree with you, and I find it outrageous that DD can say he cared for him... maybe like a king housing and feeding his knights before battle.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:04 AM EST

Squib

House: Gryffindor
Points: 166

SueB says:

Ima-
Actually, that previous post was from me (about the chess game). The more I read the more I see this theme.

SueB

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:08 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

SueB, yes, I agree with your theme. I think Harry will have a hard time trusting DD's decisions going forward... and I think that this is a natural progression. Harry must begin to think for himslef and make his own choices.

As Harry moves past Sirius' death, he grows and I feel that DD will also pass. This will solidify Harry as leader.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:13 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Tatipotter - the Lupin/James switched theory is not from all time, but as of Halloween night, the night Lily and "James" were killed.

It is a wild theory, but one I think continues to be possible. AND as Puddifoot has so correctly stated, the wilder the theory, the more likely it will happen. She mentioned Voldemort on the back of Quirrell's head - who would have thought that?

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:18 AM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 771

Dragan Glas says:

SueB
Excellent points!

Yet, once DD knows Harry is the one, he almost has to be cruel to be kind to help prepare him for his destiny - to klll or be killed.

He has to make decisions which may seem to play Harry like a pawn, in order that he is safe until he can be promoted to the most important piece in this battle. He places/forces Harry to live with the Dursleys - even when he wants to live with Sirius or Lupin or even the Weasleys.

Chess, as Life, requires planning and judgement - as when DD judges what is the best course of action to ensure that Harry survives until he is able to make his own choices

Chess, as Life, requires sacrifices - like when Ron plays Harry and Hermione across the Transfigured Chess Set at the cost of himself and Lily sacrifices herself to save Harry.

I'm very much reminded of David Edding's series "The Belgariad" and "the Malloreon" - the first series had book titles based on chess ("Pawn of Prophecy" (!!), etc).

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:23 AM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

Tattipotter - as Ima Quidditch fan said, the spell would not have gone for all time. It was done long after they left school. And even if they had done it way back when they were in school, that is the time that they were both alive anyway, and he saw both of their bodies. They would be forced to act like the other does, anyway. However, the spell would not have been performed till later, anyway.

And James later would not have defended Sirius becuause he had been living Lupins life. He had been living as Lupin, everyone thinks it is Lupin alive not James. So, if it is thought that "Lupin" does or does not know something about the Fidelius Charm and secret keeper change, that is in fact what James Potter knows. Remember, if they switched places, the mind of that person is not with their own body. So Lupin would be dead, even if his body is not, and James Potter would not know of a secret keeper change becuause he was not there. His body was, but his mind would be in Lupin's body, which was not there to know. Very complicated.

That is my take on the throry. Dunno if I am right, of course, but this is what I think it would mean. I'm not even sure if I agree with the theory. It is a very intersting thought, in any case, but who knows?

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:32 AM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

And of course, James would have to continue to act like Lupin even now, becuase "Lupin" is the one that is thought to be alive. James is thought to be dead.

Dumbledore, I believe, is not evil. Hermione is usually right, we know, and she says "If we can't trust Dumbldore, we can't trust anyone." So, that leads you to really hope Dumbledore is not evil, doesn't it? :) I mean, it does not say that Dumbldore is indeed good, but anyway, an interesting quote. I for one think the look of triumph has more to do with the situation between Harry and Voldemort, and the potion Voldie used to get his body back, and the Prophecy (which he knew about even if we didn't), and the fact that he had said before that there may be a day when Harry will be happy that he saved Pettigrew'w life. I wonder if because Voldie has the flesh of his servant (in his body) that is in debt to Harry (whose blood is also in his body) that Voldie can be killed, by Harry, but can Voldie kill Harry? And from the Prophecy we know that one has to kill the other. Just a thought.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:40 AM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Leslie, a very good good point about the circle make-up of Voldie's new body..

Wormtail owes Harry a wizard's debt --> Harry's blood in Voldie and Wormtails's flesh, and bone from his muggle father, who he murdered... interesting.

I wonder if we will ever see Voldie face to face with the shadow's of his parents. I wonder what his mom would say if she knew the choices he made.

Also, I wonder if Voldie was influenced by Grimwauld, as he,Voldie has influenced so many others.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 11:52 AM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

Ok...I absolutely hate the thought of DD being evil.
DD admits to an "Old mans mistake" and I think DD
will cool off alittle in book 6 but he will still
look out for Harry on the sideline...cause I believe
DD thinks Harry is ready....well, he will be after
getting over Sirius's death..MY thought on the "triumphant
gleem" is that DD beleives that now Harry's blood is in Vold--*shudder* You-Know-Who..Harry won't have as hard of a time killing V--You-Know-Who...and thats what I think..but I doubt it....................
-sirius-ella-

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 12:10 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

Tatipotter: I don't think it really goes so far as to say Voldie can't kill Harry, either, but I had to make that point. I personally think that it will be much harder for Voldie to kill Harry and much more easy for Harry to get to Voldie. In what way, I do not know.

But I have made postes on this before, my theory. I wonder if Voldie also has a part of the debt Wormy has to Harry, or if he does not. But I do think he is right in the middle of it all, whether or not the debt extends to him. Voldie has made silly mistakes before that were his downfall, or prevented him from rising again, and I wonder if this is yet another one of those mistakes.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 12:23 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

And furthermore, now we know that Harry is very angry. He has a very big temper. He is also somewhat reckless when he gets angry. I wonder, that if he does indeed die by the end of the series, it will be in part to his recklessness. I mean, I love Harry, he's obviously my favorite character, and I'm not saying that if he dies it will be entirely his fault. I'm just saying it might be what takes him to fighting Voldie in the first place. I think that is almost obvious.

Also, we know that Harry must be one powerful wizard if that prophecy does indeed apply to him. I think it does, or at least it does now. He produced a patronus in his third year. A powerful one. And now two years later even adult wizards are impressed that his patronus has a shape. He is very good with DADA, and he even beat Hermione. OK, I don't really think I need to argue Harry's power, I think we all know this stuff.

But I must wonder if Neville is more powerful than we previously thought. (Course, he wouldn't have to be very powerful to accomplish that. haha.) We found out he's more important than we thought, and we probably still haven't heard the whole story on that. But now we know that he has been using his dad's wand all this time, and a wizard never gets the best results with another's wand. And Neville was starting to improve in this latest book. He is obviously very determined to get better, and that may be what makes him better. When he gets angry, like Harry, he can be somewhat reckless and does things we wouldn't have seen him do otherwise.

What do the rest of you think?

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 12:37 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Leslie - I agree, if Neville just got his own wand, he could be one of the best in the class. Dare I say Head Boy? ::Laughs::

Anyway, Neville's life in book 5 seems to parallel with Ginny's life. Both have gained a certain amount of confidence that finally lets them be seen and do well. Ginny's infatuation with Harry lets her show her true colors around him (which we have never seen, as we only see things from Harry's perspective), and I think that the time at St. Mungo's on Christmas really helped Neville. Do you remember when he gave the glance toward our heroic trio as if he was daring them to make fun of him? They didn't, and I think that Neville expected it more than he dared it. He was finally accepted right there for who he is and no more. I think that this really boosted his confidence.

These are two characters to keep a close eye on, I think.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 12:53 PM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

Newt:
Yes, I have to agree with you on keeping an eye on Neville, and Ginny. I have a feeling we will see more of them..hanging out with Harry,Ron, and Hermione. Also I have a question, you know how you say J.K. never brings something up once and doesn't use it as something importent later? Well, who here feels Aberforth (DD bro) will re-join The Order? Or atleast come into the picture and play a semi-importent role?
-sirius-ella-

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:03 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

I agree, Newt Scamander Neville and Ginny should be closely watched.

As far as the Voldie and Harry thing goes - We know it will be hard for them to duel. This is something we have already seen. I think unless they always catch each other off guard with every spell, (unlikely) the wands will connect again. So, we also know that there is some "weapon" somewhere that Harry can use. But what is it? And does Voldie have a similar weapon?

And according to the prophecy, "either must die at the hands of the other, for neither can live while the other survives." So, what will each use to kill the other? And which will die? Or will both? And how long will the prophecy go - I mean, how long can they go before they have to try to and succeed in killing the other? This is hard to explain what I'm thinking. The prophecy says that neither can live with the other - so where does that end? If they never get around to killing each other, or one killing the other, will they suddnely both die at random, or what? (I put a little sarcasm in there, but I made my point.) And how far away is such an occurance, if that is indded what is supposed to happen?

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:05 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Leslie - Yes, that part of the Prophecy is odd. When I read it, it reminded me of the tiem in the first book when either Quirrel or Tom tells Harry that there is no good and evil, only power and those too weak to seek it. Then he persuaded Harry to give him the stone and Harry wouldn't have to die. Now, how does this relate to the Prophecy? Well, it got me thinking...if Voldemort and Harry were to join sides, would they be indestructible? If they can only die at the hands of the other, then wouldn't it be impossible to fully take down their combined strength?

Well, it's good for the wizarding world that Harry knows of good and evil, and what the proper side to take is, if this is indeed true.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:14 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

Good Point, Newt Scamander. But I also wonder, if the prophecy holds true, would they even be able to combine forces? Or would that be the way both could escape death?

But I also got to thinking as soon as I made that last post: What exactly is the definition of "live" in that Prophecy? Does it literally mean that you and your body are alive, or does it mean "live" in a more figurative sense?

Now I will go insane trying to figure out what it all means! :)

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:22 PM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

*HEM HEM*...no one answered my question...above--------please answer I would like to know what your opinions are....



-sirius-ella-

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:29 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Leslie - If you want my thoughts on that part of the Prophecy, go to the 2126-2150 and find my post (if you have Internet Explore, press Ctrl+F and type in "Newt" and press enter). It's the best interpretation I could come up with.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:30 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

Sorry, Sirius-Ella. OK, I do think that Aberforth will be mentioned again. I have no idea how or in what way he will play a role, though. Don't even know if it will be very important. Maybe we will just meet him. Maybe he will be another member of the Order like you said. So many possibilities! :)

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:32 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Sirius-Ella - I think we have met him, and I think he is in the Order. Remember how Dumbledore said that he got caught putting improper charms on goats? Well, in the fifth book, in Hog's Head, the bartender looked familiar to Harry and I believe he's described somewhat like he is in the original Order's picture. Also, the bar smelled like goats.

I figure that, as there are shady figures in Hog's Head, Aberforth is helping the Order spy on the enemy. He's probably keeping quiet so that the "shady characters" don't stop coming to his bar.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:37 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

Thanks, Newt. I remember reading that before, actually, now that I've had a reminder. Yeah, I think that could be a possibility.... This is some complicated stuff. :) So, it is possible that neither can mortally, literally, die unless the other kills him. I see.... I don't know. I think we need book 6! Of course, most of these questions maybe won't be answered till book 7.... so I want that one too. :)

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:38 PM EST

Healer for all Occasions

House: Gryffindor
Points: 3567

Madam Malkin says:

Yet another very interesting theory, Newt Scamander. I don't know what role Aberforth would play, but I do think we'll see him again, like I said, and I don't know the level of importance of his role in the books, either. But that is a good thought, and a distinct possibility.

Also, Newt, you seem to have a good handle on the books, as the rest of us do, :) and I posted a thought on Voldie and Harry in comments 2401-2425, that continued into this page of comments. What do you think of it?

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:44 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

I am reposting my response to the who is Harry's godmother...

It makes sense to me that it is Alice Longbottom.

Same age as Lily, in the Order together, sons almost the exact age... surely they were close friends.

If she is Harry's godmother, it makes sense that no one has mentioned it... as she has lost her mind and in the hospital. BUT I think very possible, esp. since we saw her.

I wonder what she thinks she is giving Neville - it she thinks she is protecting him... something she should give both the boys?

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:52 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Ima Quidditch Fan - I remembered reading that this morning when I went over my what-did-I-miss comments from after I retired for the night, and I made a note to respond, but unfortunately it was a mental note and was forgotten.

I think that Alice Longbottom could be Harry's godmother. The lack of this being mentioned would make perfect sense. Dumbledore probably wouldn't tell Harry that after his Penieve adventure in Book 4 because he'd get to curious and might let something slip to his friends or to Neville, which, as Dumbledore said, was Neville's information to let slip if he wanted.

I too wondered if there is something that will happen later that involves Mrs. Longbottom's "gifts." Maybe it isn't necessarily the candy wrappers, but her giving nature. Maybe something secret and important will fall into her hands and she'll give that to Neville...or...something something something. I don't know where I'm going with this, so I suppose I should stop now.

But yes, I agree, she could be the godmother.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 1:56 PM EST

Professor

House: Gryffindor
Points: 1106

Ima Quidditch Fan says:

Newt, do you think the Mimbulus mimbletonia will eventually cure the Longbottoms? Neville's memory is SO much better since hse got that plant. AND he was interupted when he was explaining WHAT it does... I think it will be very impromptant. (ALso, JKR must have really wanted to knock us over the head that is was important as it was the password for Gryffindor ALL year)

It would be great if Neville's parents could be healed. I think the Order could use them, not to mention Neville and Harry.

Posted Jul 20, 2003 at 2:04 PM EST