Discussion: The 'Phoenix' files

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 993

Muggle Wizard says:

Hi again Newt Scamander. IMO Sirius' death counts as a sacrifice, but I don't think it counts as a sacrifice in Harry's behalf as much as it counts as a sacrifice in the behalf of the Order (of which I expect Harry will become a member sooner or later). Thoughts?

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 12:46 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Muggle Wizard - We keep bumping into each other, don't we? Well, yes, the sacrifice does seem to be in favor of the Order, which I hadn't thought of. Rowling, however, has only talked about the power of love being put into Harry, so it will be interesting to see whether or not the Order seems a bit stronger in the next book. Of course, they undoubtedly will just from being able to recruit other members (say, from the Ministry) now that Fudge is aware that Voldemort has indeed returned.

As for Harry's membership in the Order, we must remember that only wizards of age (I suppose that means 18) who are done with schooling can be a member of the Order. I assume that we'll receive our conclusion to this tale in Harry's seventh year (especially seeing as he could end up dying), so I'm unsure if Harry will ever officially join the Order. Of course, rules can be bent, especially now that Dumbledore may tell members of the Order that Voldemort can only fall to Harry's hands. With that being said, they may think twice about hiding things from Harry. If anyone else has opinions on the subject, speak up.

Also, I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but where will the Order's headquarters be in the next book? Now that the Black family has been entirely destroyed and the only rightful resident of the house is Kreacher, will the Order stay within Black's home? One thing that has an advantage of the residence here is the portrait linked from Dumbledore's office to the house. However, I am still a bit uncertain. Any thoughts?

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:00 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

Newt Scamander and Muggle Wizard...about the sacrifice thing...I don't think Sirius' death counts as a sacrifice because he didn't willingly die. I mean, doesn't sacrifice mean willing dying for a cause? Like, Lily said "kill me instead of Harry" (well, something like that) so she sacrificed herself. Or, for a historical example, Christian martyrs would willingly let themselves be burned to death or whatever. Just being killed "in the line of duty" so to speak, doesn't necessarily mean it was a sacrifice. I think Harry (in the final faceoff) will try to sacrifice himself for the sake of another (the whole "love" issue) in the true sense...by throwing himself willing in front of someone to "take the bullet" (or curse) and that act of sacrifice/love will cause the curse to rebound on Voldie, AND since Harry wasn't using his wand, the curse will kill Voldie on the rebound. I didn't mean to go into my whole theory again, but it fit in with the topic. Sorry :-)

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:15 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 993

Muggle Wizard says:

owlpost -- Nice explanation. I wouldn't be surprised if Percy just wanted to come across as power-hungry.

Newt Scamander -- yes, we sure do keep commenting back and forth. And I don't think we even disagree! :) We have already seen that Harry and his friends did not need to be of age to hear almost all of the critical information that the Order had in July. Harry is special to the Order, and in order for them to take advantage of whatever special power it is he's got they will either have to clue him in or figure out how to manipulate him. Of course, this all assumes that the Order triumphs by the end of book 7; if Voldemort triumphs then Harry won't need to know anything, will he? So you're right, he may never be an official member, but he might as well be in my opinion.

I don't know what will happen to the Black home. Both Narcissa and Bellatrix are members of the Black family. Kreacher is still around. And Dumbledore has used some sort of magic on top of that applied by Sirius' father. Who knows.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:19 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 993

Muggle Wizard says:

Aravis, of course sacrifice means willingly dying for a cause. By joining the Order, and then by going to the Dept. of Mysteries, Sirius willingly agreed to all the risks involved.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:23 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

I think wizards become "of age" at 17. Remember Fred and George said they were of age now that they're 17 and in GoF only those "of age" were allowed pasy the age line and that meant only the 17 yrs olds got through (remember Angelina said "I turned 17 last week")

Muggle Wizard, I too am curious about what will happen to Kreacher. I mean, he serves the Black family, not necessarily the house, so would he go to next-of-kin, like Bellatrix (shudder, shudder)? That would mess things up for the Order. Even though the physical location of the house cannot be found (DD is secret keeper) I bet Kreacher has a secret or two about the Order that he can tell Bellatrix. I mean, he went over to her house when Sirius told him to leave, right? So that would probably be where he' likliest to go.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:23 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

Muggle Wizard...but then, any dangerous job could be a sacrifice. Like being an auror, you accept the risks. Sirius didn't die because he was specifically saving someone, right? It was "for the cause". Remember in the original Order how many people died for the cause and that didn't give them any special rights once they died.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:26 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

I mean, to clarify myself, it is a sacrifice but not such a sacrifice for love as would create a magic such as Lily did for Harry when she sacrificed herself for him.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 1:28 PM EST

Madam Librarian

House: Gryffindor
Points: 13160

I-Pie says:

Regarding the room where Sirius died, I think that is the
room where the Department of Mysteries is trying to study
death. I believe this is the Department that investigates
the great mysteries of life. In the other rooms, Harry's
group discovered rooms dedicated to studying the Brain, Time, and the Planets. Also, Dumbledore told Harry there was a room kept locked that was for studying the heart/love.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 2:25 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 993

Muggle Wizard says:

Aravis, you're right, of course -- let me advance the idea that there are different degrees of sacrifice. There's sacrifice because you believe in a cause so much that you want to be a part of it (this is the type that Sirius is involved in and the type Arthur was nearly involved in). There's sacrifice because you want to give someone else an opportunity that they would otherwise not have had (this is the type that Lily was involved in). And these two can be mixed. There are probably more types of sacrifice but these are the two we're dealing with in the books right now.

The fact is that we as people make a lot of sacrifices in our lives in order to give others opportunities or because we believe in a cause. If we never made sacrifices then we would all be selfish. We had a discussion somewhere here about how Draco is more concerned about himself. In that sense he is the opposite of the people involved in the Order, who are dedicated to a cause. Our sacrifices include sacrifices of time, money, putting other people's welfare above ours. Rarely do our sacrifices go to the extreme of giving our life, but that does happen.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 3:54 PM EST

Prefect

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 361

LaDonna says:

Crookshanks can't be an Animagus because he would show up on the Maurader's map as a person, like Peter did in PoA.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 4:29 PM EST

Chief Quibbler Editor

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 2926

The Obsesser says:

I love Sirius made an excellent, point, i think, about the fact that Sirius's face was suprise when he died, and Cedric's was blank. But then again, when the elder Riddles died, they were all very frightened.

something that i just thought of: Harry brought Cedric's body back. But what about the bodies of his parents, and all the other victims of Voldemort? What happened to them? Did they just dissapear, fall into that veil, or something? And we didn't hear Bellatrix saying Avada Kedavra, we didn't hear her saying anything...

Is it possible that she never actually killed him, just stunned him, and that he fell into the veil was what killed him? I mean, we haven't heard of what a person's expression looks like when they're stunned. Then again, the expressions might differ from curse to curse, or person to person...

just something to think about...

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 4:59 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Padfoot999 - You must've just missed it when you were reading when Dumbledore explained Harry's power to him, because he told Harry of the power, and that is his heart, his love, the only thing that Voldemort doesn't understand and hates. Also, the things worse than death would be torture, or at least certain painful types of torture. Do you remember when Moody told Harry that he'd rather be dead than lose his mind like the Longbottoms did?

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 5:13 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 862

Lilison says:

Okay so I read the book and I love Harry Potter, but I felt that a little of the "magic" was not there. I am hoping it comes back in book 6. It could be that I just hated to see Sirius die but I didn't feel like I got all that much from the 870 pages I read. Usually it is so full and so exciting. It was exciting but not really full. I'm still a huge fan and can't wait for the rest of the series to come out!!!! GO JK!!!!!!!

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 5:32 PM EST

Muggle

House: Gryffindor
Points: 29

hpkid14 says:

hi all.
Now from the beginning of pa i have always wondered about james and sirius friendship. Please correct me if i have missed an important detail but i dont think i am. Now most of you probaly remember a quote from ron in ss. He said "not one wizard went bad that wasnt in slytherin."

I then asked myself how that can be so when at the time sirius black was considered the most dangerous and bad of all the wizards in Azkaban.

Which then means how could james and sirius be best friends when they were in separate houses. Just doesnt seem practical. It may have just been an error.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 6:00 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

Lauryn...about the muggle/student thing...Cheeser added more catagories, all based on your house points. Now it goes muggle to squib to student, etc. For complete list see Cheeser's post on the "HPANA Sites Notices" article on the home page.

Muggle Wizard...excellent point. I just wonder at what point the sacrifice creates that special magic (I don't know what to call it but what Lily put into Harry). I mean, if it was going to save Sirius then wouldn't it have saved him? Or, it can be argued, maybe it has and he's still alive over on the "dead" side of the arch and just needs to get back through. However, I really really think that Sirius is dead for good (sorry)...not that that's what I'd like but even JKR herself has said that he's dead and she wouldn't lie about that I am sure. Also, as I've said before, I just don't think there is a way of bringing dead people back to life without changing them somehow...like into zombies or something. I mean, I've read about it a lot and something always goes wrong. I just don't think anyone (wizards included) is supposed to mess with death. I do, however, think there is more to that veil/arch thing then just a doorway to death but I can't figure out what that might be. Argh!

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 6:02 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 993

Muggle Wizard says:

lauryn... It depends as far as what I'd think if my two best friends were dating each other. If I could see that they were happy together, moreso than they would be with me, then I think I might be OK with it. It would really depend on the situation. Sure, it would be hard at first.....

hpkid14... Remember that Sirius wasn't really bad -- he was framed.

Aravis... Not sure if I understand your last comment. the person who sacrifices gives what they have freely. Sirius is not going to come back to life any more than Lily could.

I agree, nobody should mess with death just like Hermione was so adamant about being so very careful about messing with time in PoA.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 6:09 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

oh, Muggle Wizard, also good point on Draco (and others like him) being opposite of the Order in temperment. I mean, Slytherins are sly and will do whatever needed to "acheive their end" or something. Slytherins are more focused on what's in it for them versus being selfless like Sirius. (disclaimer: I am not insinuating that all Slytherins are selfish!) There is more between the Order and the Death Eaters than differences over Muggles...it's a whole mind set.

If anyone wants to chat more on these topics (or any other) my AIM and MSN name is AravisHermione. Just say you're from HPANA :-)

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 6:15 PM EST

Muggle

House: Gryffindor
Points: 58

phoenixfeathers says:

Okay, I agree that there's something strange going on with Crookshanks but I don't think he's an animagus of Mundungus. I don't see how Mundungus would manage it. In PoA, Hermione says that Crookshanks had been stuck in the pet store for ages because no one wanted him. Being the smuggler that he is, Mundungus wouldn't logically have a reason to be disguised as a cat in Diagon Alley. However, I do agree that Crookshanks could be part Kneazle. It would explain his cleverness.

Oh, and, this is a stupid thought but anyway--we can assume from the many seats surrounding the veiled archway that the place is meant for some type of gathering. What if everyone gathers simply to see the archway unveiled? That is to say, to see the world beyond death.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 7:11 PM EST

Prefect

House: Gryffindor
Points: 306

Hedwig1974 says:

Thanks for that link, Aravis! I loved the Matrix poster. On a completely unrelated note, how do you get the little picture icon above your name? Do you have to link to a website? I looked for info on here, but I couldn't find any. Thanks in advance!

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 8:05 PM EST

Witch

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 609

Aravis says:

Hedwig1974...go to a site with avatars (that's what the little pics are called)- I got mine at wizardingworld.co.uk- find the pic you like and then copy and paste the code into the appropriate spot on your HPANA profile page. I know there are other sites that offer avatars too, but I haven't found them yet LOL.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 8:39 PM EST

Prefect

House: Gryffindor
Points: 340

Prongs1 says:

Hey everyone, I'm kinda new here but the sites cool, any way bout the book, I though it was amazing,Did anyone else find it hard coming back to the real world, I spent all the weekend reading it(finishing in the early hours on monday) And found it really hard going to college in the morning,just kept imagening all the cool stuff I've read. really looking forward to book 6 cos I was kinda low when I had no more to read.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 9:06 PM EST

Animagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 19544

Sirius-Ella says:

UGH I just can't deal with Sirius being dead, there has to be some way for harry to get in and out of that veil to get Sirius....*ponders* Ill get back to you on that, even so I'd be really happy if they just had a painting of Sirius, so harry could atleast still talk to him. I've been depressed for the past 4 days over this Sirius deal that I ended up reading the 3rd book again so I would think he was alive again! HELP!

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 9:07 PM EST

Prefect

House: Gryffindor
Points: 340

Prongs1 says:

Hey, my comments on the prophecy are that I don't know why old voldy wanted it so bad it doesn't tell him anything that he doesnt really know already n why didn't he get himself? he went there in the end plus it was just the 'order' gaurding it and the ministry didn't believe them cos of Dumbledore.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 9:19 PM EST

Wizard

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 993

Muggle Wizard says:

fawks ... Voldemort didn't know what the prophecy said. When some people don't know something they tend to get a little bit too curious for their own good. Recall that he DID try to get it himself but Arthur Weasley happened to wake up and Nagini (presumably) ended up attacking him and having to take off before anyone could find a snake in the Ministry of Magic...

Oh, Aravis, the whole instant messaging thing sounds like a good idea to me. If any HPANAers want to look me up you can AIM me at statwebdude. (Note: I'm pretty good at blocking out unwanted contacts -- be sure to say you're from HPANA!)

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 9:33 PM EST

Old Chortlebones

House: Hufflepuff
Points: 2601

Newt Scamander says:

Fawks - I agree with Muggle Wizard on this, he did indeed not know what the Prophecy was because the only witness to Trelawney's prophecy other than Dumbledore was an eaves dropper who was "luckily caught before he could hear the whole thing" (similar wording, anyway). So Voldemort only know the first part of the prophecy, about a child being born at the end of the seventh moon (July) with equal powers as him to a family who has defied him three times. He did not know anything about being marked an equal, him having to kill Harry/Neville or vice versa, et cetera, et cetera.

He would have gone after it himself, but he didn't find it to be worth the risk. At first, he thought he could just get someone else to run in and grab it for him. He seemed to be using the Imperius curse to do this, as Harry kept seeing the search for the prophecy in his dreams. Either that or he wanted to plant the image of exactly where the prophecy was in Harry's mind before he baited him into the Department of Mysteries.

As I said, he didn't find it to be worth the risk going in himself because no one in the Ministry thought he existed (aside from one or two people in the Order). While he was still gathering back his power and more followers, he didn't want the Ministry to be in his way. When he found out that Harry and him were connected in the mind, he found out how easy it would be to get Harry to get the prophecy for him (by then he found out the secret to retrieving the prophecies). I think that he came to aid his followers for the reason that he was so excited at a chance to easily kill Harry, as well as his Death Eaters weren't doing too well in getting the prophecy, and the prophecy was in such danger of being broken and forgotten.

Posted Jul 1, 2003 at 10:03 PM EST