Discussion: The 'Phoenix' files

Madam Librarian

House: Gryffindor
Points: 13160

I-Pie says:

If reference to Harry's parent's possesions, why doesn't Harry have anything belonging to his parents (besides the cloak)? I know they mention the house was destroyed but
some items should have survived, especially since Harry survived the destruction.

Which brings us to how did Hagrid get there so fast to pull
Harry out of the wreckage before the Muggle authorities got there? Wouldn't the Muggle authorities want some say about
where Harry was sent? Who arranged burial for James and Lily? Is there a special Wizard cemetary (sp) or they are
buried in a Muggle one?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 11:22 AM EST

Squib

House: Slytherin
Points: 142

Mad-Eye says:

Thanks for your thoughts tonks black. You could be right about when the person dies the wand is destroyed, and that could be a reason the wand chooses the wizard. A connection is made and when the connection is broken through death the wand will also be destroyed. That’s why Voldemort still had his wand because he didn’t really die and he still had the wand for when the came back to his own body.

Also what houses do you think Moody and Tonks were in?
I think Tonks was in Hufflepuff but not sure about Moody

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 11:24 AM EST

Student

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 237

GOFlvr says:

I-Pie:
Maybe the secret keeper's charm works on Muggles. Even though the house blew up, they couldn't see it. ???

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 11:25 AM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

Padfoot999 about the whole time turner thing. when harry and hermione went back in time, the period they still went to was still happening. i havent read PoA in a while but what i remember happening was harry still would of beat the dementors without going back, but he wouldnt of known it was him. he did not know the patronous was his if i remember correctly. cuase harry had snuck off to the bushes to see whether it was his father that saved them since harrys patronous takes the form of his fathers animail figure, i believe.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 11:37 AM EST

Madam Librarian

House: Gryffindor
Points: 13160

I-Pie says:

GOFlvr:

In Book 1, Hagrid says he just got Harry out before the
Muggles arrived. Also, once the secret keeper told where
the house was to Voldemort, wouldn't that break the charm.
I am assuming that the charm is set up to keep certain people out.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 11:58 AM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

i-pie - maybe godrics hollow was a place like the quidditch finals where muggles couldnt see it, it just looked like a dump or something.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 12:02 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 268

Tadhgain says:

There's discussion of the Lupin/James switch and there's one major reason this can't be true. At the end of the 3rd book, Lupin transformed into a werewolf...lots of people saw him do it. So unless James switched into Lupin's form then immediately went to get bitten by a werewolf, that can't really work.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 12:12 PM EST

Head Girl

House: Gryffindor
Points: 468

Charlie'sMum says:

Here's a question for you all - As I said before, I personally believe that the think that Harry will have that V doesn't is compassion and/or forgiveness. The more I think about it, I think Harry learning forgiveness is going to be important - at the end of OOP it says how he will never forgive Snape, and he does tend to hold a grudge. (and Snape, too, needs to learn to let go.) Anyway, remember Cheering Charms? I was thinking perhaps there is some cheering charm like thing that Harry will use on V that will defeat him - V couldn't stay possessing Harry when Harry thought of Sirius, because Harry was feeling love, so perhaps Harry will hit him with some sort of charm after he, himself, learns to have compassion and forgiveness and this will end Voldemort's reign. What do you all think?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 12:15 PM EST

Auror

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 2374

TrueBluePotterFan says:

eclektic - Ron and Harry without Hermione??? Isn't that what happened during a portion of COS? Hermione was petrified, so Harry and Ron had to do it on their own. Though they did have some help from her in the form of the crumpled up piece of paper found in her hand.

Same thing applies to several other story lines when Harry is found alone, such as the maze or graveyard in GOF. Yes, Hermione helped him prepare for the maze, but she was not there to help him.

I don't disagree that Voldemort will continue to take advantage of Harrys friendships/relationships to try to control or lure him. But I do think he can stand on his own.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 12:20 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

CarolAlutius - DD had already stated what the power harry had that Voldie didnt have was. he said it was the love from his mother who died for him.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 12:30 PM EST

Auror

House: Ravenclaw
Points: 2374

TrueBluePotterFan says:

Hey all, just a thought. If I remember correctly, Harry was told that he had to be tested on potions during the NEWTS to become an auror. He was told that Snape only accepted students who scored "O"- outstanding. I took this to mean on his OWL's potion test. Based on that, Snape is not in control of whether Harry gets into his NEWT class(es), but Harry and the wizard administering the test and/or whoever grades the test.

Another theory would be that McGonagall would tutor him for the NEWTs on potions and he would not have to take Snapes class.

But then again, there would be a lot missing from the books 6 & 7 if Harry did not have to suffer through Snapes classes several times a week. Especially with the Slytherin students.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 12:57 PM EST

Madam Librarian

House: Gryffindor
Points: 13160

I-Pie says:

The connection between Harry and Voldemort is based on emotions. So Harry can only tell what is going on with
Voldemort when he is feeling strong emotions and when Harry's guard is down. So when Harry was having his tantrum in Dumbledore's office, was Voldemort feeling his anger and heard everything said to Harry.

After Voldemort lost the duel, I assume he would be very angry. But Harry did not feel Voldemort's anger then, so was Harry's anger blocking Voldemort's. Or has Voldemort figured how to keep Harry out of his head.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 1:00 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

i have a question, is there another potions teacher besides snape since he only excepts students who get an O? or is that just for one class?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 1:01 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 268

Tadhgain says:

Anyone who wants to check out a good rumors page go to http://www.harrypotterrumors.us/ they even have a supposed cover of Book 6, although the site manager admits it's probably phoney, fun to look at all the same!

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 1:33 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

tadhgain ,that site shows a pretty good cover but it dont show a cover like most of the other books. the images usually take up the whole cover.

and on harrys parents jobs, maybe they worked in the department of mysteries? and voldemort didnt want lily to get in the way so when he tried to kill harry, he was mad that it kills her. and since the prophecy was in the department of mysteries, he could of wanted her so he could get in and get the prophecy. anyone have comments on my theory?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 2:13 PM EST

Marauder says:

tonks black- Voldemort came to kill Harry and if he succeeded there would've been no point in him wanting to get the prophecy. Maybe we'll find out why Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 2:39 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

marauder - did voldemort know there was two peoplewho could be the one in the prophecy? cause if not, he might of wanted to see how many people could qualify

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 2:42 PM EST

George Can'tStandya says:

Bear with me as this post is likely to be long. It is my hope that it will generate discussion on what I perceive as the most undisguised subtext of the books, and what I feel is the relationship that will define the next two books and ultimately lead to the resolution of Harry's story. That is the relationship between the various races in the wizarding world. (Note: if I have missed any previous discussion on this issue please point me in the right direction)

Many discussions of the HP saga consist in analysis of the micro relationships. Micro relationship exists between two specific characters i.e. Dumbledore and Harry. Or Draco and Harry. And of course the various ships. All of these are valuable discussion pieces and the characters certainly make the series the magical work of literature it undoubtedly is. But, with the release of OOP, I think we are seeing the macro issues coming to front and center.

The macro issues are touched on in the first chapter of the first book. McGonagal and Dumbledore discuss the carelessness of Wizards in revealing themselves to Muggles in reaction to the defeat of Lord Voldemort. The secrecy of Wizards seems to be of paramount interest to the wizarding world. Hagrid explains this to Harry as necessary so Muggles don’t go looking for magical solutions to all of their problems. This explanation is very lacking from a moral perspective. If wizards can indeed heal with magic these gifts should not be beneficial to the select few, this is the idea that caused Salahazaar Slytherin to walk away from Hogwarts. Also the secret of the wizarding world is not exactly secret. Some Muggles know, in POA it is implied that the highest-ranking government officials are aware of the wizarding world, and Muggles such as the Dursley’s know and Hermione’s parents know. Any of the “mudbloods” would have connection to the Muggle world and members of their family are certain to know the truth. The only protection from the exposure demonstrated in the book are the fact that the Dursley’s possess a pathological need to appear normal, and this has not yet been outweighed by any financial reward that exposing this secret might reap them. Now if the Dursley’s were to walk down this path, the wizarding world might fall back on the faithful memory modification bit, a solution clearly expresses the fundamental problem in the wizarding world.

Wizards have by benefit of birth set themselves ABOVE all other races. The meddling of muggles’ memory is a violation, mental rape, yet it is everyday business to the wizards, and not one character has expressed any outrage against this behavior. Yet it is the treatment of Muggles, that represents one of the clearest distinction between the death eaters and those opposed to Lord Voldemort. We are constantly told how much the death Eaters enjoyed tormenting Muggles. It is Arthur Weasley’s interest and appreciation for Muggle Society that deems him a disgrace to wizards in the eye of Lucius Malfoy. (And interesting to note that only three characters have expressed any admiration for the muggle way of doing things, Arthur Weasley, Albus Dumbledore {Lemon drops} and Dean{Prefers Soccer/Football over Quidditch} It is in Chamber of Secrets that we are introduced to the concept of Mudbloods. In SS, Draco seems to value the rich over the poor with his statement that not all Wizarding families are the same, but he takes it a step further when he uses a racial slur against Hermione. Salhazaar Slytherin’s insistence that only pure blood’s be accepted to Hogwarts is practiced by the entire wizarding world by their insistence that Muggles not be allowed to know of their existence.

The secret is revealed to be not quite so secret when in POA it revealed that the Ministry will act in concert with Muggle government are confronted with a mutual threat. They do this out of necessity, although one could argue that the existence of dragons and other dangerous creatures that kill unsuspecting muggles is something that muggles have a right to know. We are confronted with the fact that Pettigrew killed twelve muggles. So the wizards themselves are revealed as a threat to the muggles. So who is threatened by the secret?

The problem comes into even more perspective in GOF, when we the readers are introduced to the true scope of the wizarding world. During the Quidditch Finals we are shown hundreds of thousands of wizards from around the world. Two new schools of witchcraft and wizardry are introduced. Far from being an isolated number of wizards working and living in England, we see that an entire society is living in the world and imposing its whims on the other societies. Muggles are terrorized and violated. The plight of the houselves are taken out of the context of one elf with one horrid family and put into a societal context. It is important to note that only a mudblood a person with both the wizarding perspective AND that of muggle society sees the houseleves subservience for what it is, slavery. All (with the exception of Dumbledore) of the wizards reject this concept out of hand. This includes the so-called good wizards, and Harry who had seen first hand the sort of abuse this relationship can lead to.

Goblins are introduced to us as creatures that are good for banking and serving wizard kind in this fashion. In later books we are exposed to the reality that Goblins are far more independent than are previous introduction would have us believe. In Harry’s history class he is hearing stories of Goblin Wars. Voldemort’s offer of Freedom to these members of wizarding society is problematic for the order of phoenix. As is the centaurs resistance to intermingling with the wizards.

Wizards have spent to long setting themselves up as the role of masters of fate for themselves and everyone else. While the sorting hat’s somg made a plea for unity between the four houses, I think the macro issues will involve unity betw

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 2:48 PM EST

George Can'tStandya says:

between the four houses, I think the macro issues will involve unity between the races. And the statue in the MOM left one race out. The muggles. In the end, some sort of relationship will have to be met between Muggles and Wizards, and this is where Harry will come in. He must be able to forgive not only Malfoy, but the Dursley’s. He will have to see not only the value in his life at Hogwarts and the world that he “belongs” in, but in life as a muggle. Because the worlds will no longer be separate.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 2:49 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

George Can'tStandya - what you said was..er..confusing. could you summerarize what you just said in about one or two sentences to make it easier to understand.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 3:04 PM EST

Marauder says:

tonks black- he probably would have since the prophecy didn't involve names. He would have had his DE find out who had babies at the end of July and he would have found out that 2 people fit in with the prophecy. If he needed someone from the Department of Mysteries to help him to get the prophecy why not just use Rookwood?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 3:10 PM EST

George Can'tStandya says:

Sorry, tonks black. I will try. The point being that the Wizards even good ones treat Muggles in a horrible fashion. Their entire scoiety so predicated on this intrinsic Muggle abuse. The same can be said for Goblins and House elves, and centuars and so on...but the Muggle relationship has only been exposed in context of the death eaters abuse, while teh whole of teh wizarding world is guilty. The relationship with Muggles and wizards will be further explored in teh next two books. Sorry for any confusion.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 3:11 PM EST

Auror

House: Gryffindor
Points: 2303

padfoot5312 says:

This is all I found on Prewetts Have to pull out the books

Prewett, Fabian
Prewett, Gideon
Among the group of the "best witches and wizards" that were killed during the Voldemort years. Gideon and Fabian Prewett were brothers who died fighting, took five death Eaters to kill them. Moody said they died like heroes.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 3:28 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

George Can'tStandya - oh okay, that clears it up and makes it much easier to understand. and i agree that wizards do treat muggles badly.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 3:31 PM EST

Squib

House: Slytherin
Points: 142

Mad-Eye says:

George Can'tStanda- that is a very good point. Most people seemed to overlook muggles when saying that there would have to be unity to defeat Voldemort.

Even Hermione who started SPEW didn't seem very bothered that muggles were being treated badly and having memory charms put on them.

Muggles may even play a minor part in the downfall of Voldemort if they are unified with wizards.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 3:47 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

George Can'tStandYa- You make a good point, and Mad-eye said that muggles may play a minor part in the downfall. Well, i don't know if this is true, but I heard that the non-magical world and the muggles in it, may find out about the magical world.. and this could lead to food or bad things. If they muggles do find out about the wazrding world, the question I would love to know is, would they help in the defeat of Voldemort, or would they maybe turn against the wizarding race? With all the points you brought up George Can'tStandYa, muggles may feel they deserve to "pay back" wizards for all the "damage" they have caused to muggles.. Any other thoughts on this?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:10 PM EST