Discussion: The 'Phoenix' files

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

George Can'tStandYa- You make a good point, and Mad-eye said that muggles may play a minor part in the downfall. Well, i don't know if this is true, but I heard that the non-magical world and the muggles in it, may find out about the magical world.. and this could lead to food or bad things. If they muggles do find out about the wazrding world, the question I would love to know is, would they help in the defeat of Voldemort, or would they maybe turn against the wizarding race? With all the points you brought up George Can'tStandYa, muggles may feel they deserve to "pay back" wizards for all the "damage" they have caused to muggles.. Any other thoughts on this?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:10 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

i agree with all the stuff about muggles wanting to fight wizards if they found out everything. but seriously, couldnt the wizards beat muggles in a battle quicker than they could pull out a gun?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:15 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 268

Tadhgain says:

tonks black, in Britain the images don't take up the whole cover. So you never know, it probably is a fake, but it's a fake copy of the British cover rather than the US where the image takes up the whole cover. You can see what the British covers look like at http://www.mugglenet.com/books/bookcovers/unitedkingdombc.shtml

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:19 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

tadhgain, oh yeah. i didnt realize that the covers were changed for different countries and all.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:24 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

tonks black- they could but the question is would they do it. In the 5th book Hagrid and Maxime go to try and befirend the Giants, so it makes me think that Wizards would want all the help they could get and they wouldn't want to start another war between muggles. My guess is that they would have to accept the fact that muggles are mad about this, and some probably wouldn't take it very well, but they would try and befriend them like they did the giants don't you think? It's a really confusing subject because there are so many different paths that both the magical world and the non-magical world could take. I mean there are understanding and not so understanding people on both sides sooo.. I still would love to hear more opinions on this matter if anyones got them!

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:24 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

flitterbloom - i agree on what you said. but there are some wizards out there like voldemort and people who follow him that would mess the peaceful connection between most wizards and muggles up if their ever was on

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:30 PM EST

George Can'tStandya says:

Flitterbottom- I am intrigued by teh Mad eye reference, was that in OOP? And you have expounded on my question, Voldermort might be more inclined to make the Muggles a deal, or would the inherent death eater Muggle hatred, make them natural and necessary allies to OP?

Tonks Black- While Harry and Hermione and other mudbloods have knowledge of Muggle ways, the Weasley's demonstrate that the pure bloods do not. Their lack of knowledge of things like electricity and firearms do not make Muggle "magic" any less deadly. The wizards at first blush seem much more powerful, but would wizards know what to do with nuculear bombs? And maybe the wizards are just more powerful? Are we then left looking at the mutant question present in the X-men. Is there any reason why some muggles give birth to magic children and some magic people give birth to squibs? I can't shake the notion that the relationship between these very similar yet dissimilar races is important.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:32 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

That's definitly true tonks black, but if (iiif) the muggle world sided with wizards creating a peaceful connection don't you think that perhaps they would love to help the magical world bring Voldemort down at any cost? You yourself said that wizards could kill a muggle faster than they could pull their gun out, and George Can'tStandYa made a great point in saying that the death eaters kill muggles for fun, so would it be logical to say that the muggle world would do whatever they could to stop Voldemort from killing muggles? So I don't see how Voldemort would mess up that peace too much. I mean, we know that Voldemort could definitly try and persuade some muggles that he is right, and he could convince them to join his side, but I think they'd be in for a surprise once they saw how he treats his "followers"... just some thoughts! lol

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:37 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

flitterbloom - what i was saying about disrupting the peace was if a death eater attacked muggles and killed them and the muggles did not know he was with voldemort. then my question was would they believe DD or Fudge or who ever told them that the person who hurt them was with voldemort

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:43 PM EST

Marauder says:

How much of a help could Muggles be though. If they sided with OP they couldn't do much against the DE could they? Because wizards can just stun them, disapparate if overwhelmed by them, or use any kind of spell on them. They may play a role but I don't see anything that the could do to help.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:44 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

You defnintly make a great point tonks black. I agree with you cmopletely. I'm just trying to bring up a situation and see everyones in put. Marauder, you make a good point too. It's true that if voldemort could kill before a muggle even reacted, how would they be able to help.. anyone got some ideas on this? This seems like such a complicated matter. that if JKR were to bring this up in a future book I'll be amazed at what she does with it. I mean, there's always the other side with all the muggles siding with Voldemort against the all our good wizards...

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:48 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

marauder - thats exactly what i meant when i said that a wizard could kill a muggle before a muggle had a chance to pull out a gun.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:48 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 294

girliegirl says:

One of the things that I liked the most about this book was the pensieve part ,James´ hair and how he was always playing with the snich...how cute! the Snape part was kinda sad I actually felt bad for him !....about cho and harry ..I think she is ...(Im not saying what I think she is) she cries over cedric all the time so people think that she actually "cares" but she is going out with other guys anyway (not just harry)...

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:52 PM EST

Metamorphmagus

House: Gryffindor
Points: 37939

tonks black says:

flitterbloom- wow. i never thought of that. by that i mean that the muggles sided with voldemort. that would really turn the plot around. but do you the muggles who have wizarding kids would side with him? and if they did maybe their kid would be forced to go to the dark side. that could change the plot around alot.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:53 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 294

girliegirl says:

Can a muggle kill Voldemort? I mean ...with a gun or something like that... could a muggle weapon hurt him ???

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:58 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

Ohhhh tonks black you're seriously making me nervous. That would definitly create a Serious twist in the plot!! I mean, people like Dean Thomas and Justin Finch-Fletchy being forced by their muggle parents to join the dark side, turning on their friends too.. Wow! Would voldemort be able to use to Imperius Curse on muggles? Cause that could cause some up-roar..

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 4:59 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

Thats a good question girliegirl. I have no idea myself.. He is still human so you'd think a regualr muggle weapon would be able too.... hmmn

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:00 PM EST

delay says:

I just have a couple of comments.

First, I agree with what TrueBluePotterFan said at the end of his post about Harry needing Potions to become an Auror. I just can't see JK Rowling not having Harry in class with snape. I think it will happen. I don't know how, but it will. I think the most logical answer is that he actually did do quite well in the potions OWL. It might be that he is talented in it and it is just emotions relating to Snape that makes him mess up.

Second, this post goes back a bit to the question about the time turner and harry defeating the dementors in PoA. I know Tonks Black addressed this. But I just wanted to clarify. He wouldn't have done it without the time turner for several major reasons. 1 When actually confronted in real time he was not able to produce the patronus. 2 Without the time turner he wouldn't have been there in the first place. 3 In PoA, it says something about him being able to produce the patronus because he realized that he saw himself do it. In other words he had more confidence.

Finally, a thought about the future of harry potter. The part of the prophesy that doesn't seem to get much discussion is the phrase that Voldemort "marked him as an equal." That was the part that Voldemort didn't know, and that was fortelling his losing his power when he attacked harry. Now, so far we have seen this alluded to before when we find that harry is a parselmouth. However, one would think that to be marked as an equal to Voldemort would mean more than the transfer of some quasi-trivial powers like that. Beyond this, we know that James was the brightest student at school. I think that between these two factors we can expect to see Harry's ability to do magic greatly increase in the future. I think he will become much stronger in that respect and become a much better student.

hmm. I think that is all...

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:01 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 294

girliegirl says:

Voldemort could disappear or kill the muggle before he shoots but what if he isnt fast enough? can that happen?

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:09 PM EST

delay says:

Oh, one other thing. I always assumed that the reason that they kept themselves secret from muggles was not because they thought themselves superior but they feared retribution. The salem witch trials are brought up at some point I think. To me, that just makes far more sense. If they were to show themselves the wizarding comunity would be in danger.....as has been said a number of times.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:12 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

GirlieGirl.. good point. Maybe he wouldn't be fast enough. I still think that he can be killed by muggle weapons.. I mean, how could he not be?
Delay- you bring up a point I was seriously debating with Harry and his potions OWL. I think that he'll get it too. I think that Snape will actually understand Harry's power and want to help him succeed. He's going to have to get over this loathing of him just because of James. I agree with you delay that Harry will more than likely grow as a student and become much better.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:13 PM EST

George Can'tStandya says:

I tried to post this once before, so I hope this isn't a double post.

On one hand I am not sure that a wand is necessarily faster than a bullet. And while stunners prove ineffective against giants, and dragons becuase of magic, a bazooka might be much more effective. that being said I do not see JKR going a bombs and bullets flying route, though one never know.

I still feel strongly that Muggles have some contribution inside them, and it is paramount that the wizards start treating them as equals, along with the house elves. It is going to reuire the Oder of Phoenix to start gainging ground rather than just playing prevent defense against teh Death Eaters. They must start changing attitudes in teh wizard world. SPEW is a first step in this regard. Muggles must be included, they are after all teh greatest numbers, and as long as tehy are looked on or treated as unequal the attitudes of the Death Eaters will have fertile ground in which to grow.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:15 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

Yes delay thats another good thought. The wizarding world may fear muggles. I mean, muggles do out-number wizards, but the question is, do they out-rank them? Both are going to feel that they're superior to the other, and that's where the whole unity problem jumps in. They need to unite if muggles do find out about the wizarding world..

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:16 PM EST

Marauder says:

Im not sure if Harry will became a great student because JKR said that Hermione was the only really smart one in the trio and that she wasn't going to take that away from her. According to the prophecy Harry is the only one that can KILL Voldemort so I think we can forget about muggles doing it.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:17 PM EST

Student

House: Gryffindor
Points: 294

girliegirl says:

All the things James put Snape through...perhaps Snape had a crush on Lyli ...she stood up for him... that´s why he hates james so much and now Harry comes up and he looks just like his father...I dont think snape is going to help harry ...he could do it but he is gonna be the same mean teacher harry hates

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:24 PM EST

Witch

House: Gryffindor
Points: 661

Flitterbloom says:

Marauder you bring up a big fact. It is true that the Prophecy says that one must kill the other, so we know that muggles can't kill Voldemort in particular, but they can still help can't they? And the whole Muggles joing voldemort is still hanging... that's a scary thought.
I agree with you George Can'tStandYa that muggles are probably going to have some contribution, the question is solely, in what will they contribute too? I don't think it's just House Elves that the wizarding world need to 'equalize' with. The whole fountain is brought back into question with the whole of every species uniting as equals. Including all forms of species from house elves and goblins, to giants, centuars and muggles.

Posted Jul 9, 2003 at 5:24 PM EST